Thursday, February 8, 2007

Hydra island

  • Seen in S03E04
  • At the moment, I'm still unsure about its position and start to return to the theory that it's located in the South or South-East (notice the position of sun/shadows in the screenshots)
  • Edit (02/08/07): Screenshot of the main island seen from "Alcatraz" in S03E07

34 comments:

MikeQuinn007 said...

Hey lostysmurf,
This is my first post to your Map Blog. I'm amazed how much time and effort you put into this. It really shows. Very good work! I just wanted to suggest something about the Hydra location. I think it's South of the Island. The following is my comment to Yung23's Website about the same issue.


1. The elevation view is of an independent island (I'll call it the side island), seperate from the Larger island.
2. What a lot of people forget is that a triangle's 3 angles must add up to 180 degrees. The triangle's angles are longitudinal degrees on the larger map (that's how to locate/size the island)
3. If you look at the screen shot of Sawyer being shown the larger island, what people don't realize is that he is actually looking at the side island with the larger island behind it. (Edit : If you look at the screen shot, the darker forground (probably added with computer aided graphics) is the Side island. Compare the screen shot's darker forground with the map of the side island (elevation view). They are the same.
4. In summary, the elevation view is of a separate island and the triangle is a method to place/locate that island on the larger island plan view.

I have a sketch to describe this.

http://img486.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hydraislandandsideislanum0.jpg

LostySmurf said...

Hi Mike,

thanks for your comment and your theory! I'm glad you like my work.

Your main idea is that there's another island between "Alcatraz" and the main island (the side island in your map) and that the elevation/side view map shows this side island seen from Alcatraz, correct?

I'm pretty sure the side view of the scene you mentioned in 3 is completely computer generated so this should be a reliable source. I totally agree that the elevation map shows the "versant exposé"/"exposed slope" of this side view, but comparing the distance between Alcatraz and the side island with the distance between the side and the main island, I would tend to say the side island is closer to the main island than to Alcatraz.

I like your idea about the angles of the map referring to some kind of longitude values. But I've some questions:
- why is the alignment of the grid based on the magnetic north? AFAIK, the top of the map should be the "true" north (see S01E13 - Hearts And Minds), the magnetic north should be some degrees right of it (also see the thin line on the compass rose on Rousseau's map).
- where did you get the latitude values from? Are these random numbers or is there a reference to these values on the maps?
- what are those blue dashed lines? Looks like they're pointing to specific locations on the island.

Hmmm, I guess there might be a side island or even more islands south of the main island (remember the "trois îlots" caption on one of Rousseau's maps). Maybe we get some more answers from the show when Kate and Sawyer return to the main island :-)

LostySmurf said...

Oops, just noticed the orientation of your island sketch and that the grid actually IS based on the true north. So please ignore my question about that.

MikeQuinn007 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
MikeQuinn007 said...

Hey losty,

I made another map with some new informaion that I gleamed from the Screen caps.


http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/9044/overallmapow2.jpg


The most important is the South edge of the Island is at 32 latitude. That puts it closer to the larger island. The following are screen caps to show how I determined longitudinal and latutudinal values and locations.

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/5622/latitude34ob4.jpg

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/4351/longitudinal36qe3.jpg

Screen shot to determine shape of islands and notes concerning Side island and Hydra Island

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/4528/sideislandandhydrata7.jpg


Screen shot to determine Side island position (East edge 40 lat, south edge 32 long)

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/8269/islandpositiontf7.jpg

LostySmurf said...

Thanks for the explanations and screencaps, Mike!

I see how you got the numbers you are referring to. Great work! It's sometimes hard for me to distinguish between the longitudinal and latitudinal degree captions on the map because there are so many numbers written down on the map.

The three angle values at the triangle really look like some kind of coordinates. So I think you might be on the right track. BTW, have you read yung's "The missing islets" thread? He has also done some great investigations of that area.

But what still bugs me: Why isn't the side island drawn on Rousseau's top view map? With its huge size it would be clearly visible from the main island? Any ideas?

MikeQuinn007 said...

Hey Losty,

I hate to do this to you, but I revised my map and added some notes.

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/4527/overallmap2kd6.jpg

Notes 1 and 2 are per the following screen cap

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/9786/notesfd9.jpg


I did see review Yung23's work prior then attemping to locate the islands. I am amazed at Young23's work ( not to take anything away from yours). I left a post for him describing my idea. I don't think he could bring himself to position the islands without a good reason. So he selected to place the Side island in the triangle view as it showed in Plan dwg 1. He did not include Hydra island because the plan dwg 1 did not show that in the screen cap, but this view (Plan Dwg 1) was a folded map, and I think hydra was simply beneath the fold.




Yung23's view of Side Island with Large Island behind. I think he should have kept this view.


http://img336.imageshack.us/my.php?image=thankyouabc22mp.jpg

It's my interpretation (I hate to intrepret other people's work) that he located the side island because of it's position on Plan drawing 1

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/521/yung23interpretationnk3.jpg





I can only guess at why Rousseau's maps (It's my understanding that there are two plan drawings) did not show the Side island and the Hydra island at full view. Both drawing do have both islands in a triangle view (I'm assuming Plan Dwg 1 had it beneath the fold).


http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/1131/plandwg1and2iv9.jpg

But think of the maps from Rousseau's perspective. Unless she swam (not a good idea) to the Side island how could she possibly know Hydra's position. How could she accurately describe/survey the Side island? The way she did this is go to the highest point of the large island (possible location of transmitter) and view both islands and simply measure their true angles of off North with a transit. This would allow her to accurately postion both islands. Then She simply converted these angles to latidude/longitude. What is really amazing is that I never thought about this until your question. The top of the triangle is very close to your position of the transmitter. But she can only esitmate these islands. I think until she had the opportunity to actually survey these islands, she didn't want to place them on her accurate plan drawings (would you?), so she included them in a way to indicate they are not as accurate as the rest of the drawing. (She's kinda smart,huh?)

Also, consider Sayid's comment when completing the trianges by laying maps above each other, espesially concerning latitude and longitude, and the transmitter loctation:




Sayid's comments:


Sayid
Once I realized these equations were coordinates, latitude and longitude, I assumed the French woman was trying to determine the location of the island. But it was incomplete, the notations fragmented.
Shannon
Except for the fish song.
Sayid
MmHmm.
Jack
The what?

Sayid
But when I laid the pages down like this [Sayid lays the maps on top of each other revealing a triangle] I realized it wasn't showing the location of the island. I think it's a location on the island. Specifically, here.
Jack
So where are we in relation to the triangle?
Sayid
Well, the map is hardly in scale, so I don't know.
Jack
We're not even sure it's a map of this island, are we?
Sayid
We're not, no. But this may be the transmitter sending out the distress call. And it's power source.




Anyway Losty, I'm curious why you removed the transmitter location on your current map? I was surprised that the triangle top and your transmitter location were so close.

You obviously understand, that I placed the longitudinal and latitudinal lines as best I could, but I can only be as accurate as the map, and the map cannot be perfect. I'm only able to estimate the locations. If you decide to place them on your map, use the screen shots, or I could do try it and see what you think.

I know people are curious why Sayid would not have seen the Islands on his jouney to the cable, but I discount this. It may have been dark, raining, or he may have seen it and simply kept the information to himself (I don't think he trusts Locke). Think about this. Why didn't he mention the two other small isands (Alex and the one east of the island). He must have also past these.

LostySmurf said...

Hi Mike,

I love seeing the updates of your map and how it evolves! Again, great work and I think you've found some clues no one else have noticed before. So your work is highly appreciated!

I'm also totally amazed by Yung's maps and I think they are the best ones you can find. He started a long time ago and has really spent a lot of effort into his maps. So I don't claim to have a better map than his one but to provide a different perspective and interpretation of some locations on the island.

Great observation that the possibly missing islets might be beneath the fold of Dwg 1. I like your idea of Rousseau trying to determine the position of the Hydra islet by measuring it from a high point of the main island. Hmmm, maybe these numbers at the triangle aren't coordinates at all but actually angles compared to a reference point. Like you've said, she might have made this as a rough sketch to calculatate the accurate position afterwards. What do you think?

Hmmm, I think it also could be possible that the Hydra is located on the northern-most islet. There's no indication that there's an island between the Hydra and the main island, or is there any? How did you come up with this idea?

I've removed the transmitter from my map because I determined its position geometrically (I got the highest point of the western plateau by assuming an average linear ascension at the mountain slopes) and I started to think it might be on the eastern plateau (see this small circle mark on Rousseau's map). There are so many contradicting information that I decided to remove it until I've got more clues.

About Sayid: My theory is that Sayid have seen these islands, but it's nothing special about little islets close to a bigger island. So why should the Fusies start a trip to explore these islets before they have explored the main island? I know this sounds very unspectacular but we've also seen other little islets in the background of other scenes so I would simply say: Nothing worth to focus on in the show...

I would be very glad to use your lat./long. grid for my next update! Alternatively, you could use my map to draw them in or I could also post the template of my current map so that you can draw your own. Then I could post it here on my map page or you could post it in your blog (or anywhere else). That would be really great because I just love to see different interpretations and theories about the locations!

MikeQuinn007 said...

Hi Losty,

What a show last night, huh? I think the remainder of the season is going to be a wild ride.

The thing that bothers me about the triangle using the number as angles is that I just cant seem to assiciate the numbers with a meaningful trianangle's angles. I'll take fresh look at it.

Maybe I'm all wet, but look at the screen shot of Henry showing Sawyer the Main Island when he is on Hydra. The darker forground is a perfect match to the WindWard Side Elevation Map (The Island that I'm calling the Side island). My contention is that they are viewing the Side island with the Main Island in the background. If they are viewing from Hydra, then the Side island must be between the Main island and the Side island.

If you could post your most recent map, then I will try to incorporate my findings. This will allow you to take into account different interpretions, like you mentioned. If I make any new additions, I'll provide reasons with possible screen shots. The funny thing is, every time I look at Rousou's Maps, I see something new. LOL.

I'll try and tackle Ferry next.

LostySmurf said...

Hi Mike!

Yeah, I really liked the last episode. Not necessarily because of the plot but because of the stellar acting. But let's get back to map business :-)

About the angles - imagine following scenario: Rousseau is standing on a mountain top, sees the islet and wants to put it in her map. Maybe she has a sextant (or something like that) with her, so she measures the angles of specific points of the islet (e.g. the outline) in relation to a reference point (e.g. a mountain top before her or the horizon). She notes them on her map with a rough sketch of the islet. Now she's able to calculate the position and size of the triangle by putting it into relation to the distance to the reference point. But before she could do it, the map is stolen by Sayid and only these cryptic numbers remain. An indication for that might be that the island is just plainly drawn in with its outline (compare its body to the ones of the other mapped island). So there's still some work for Rousseau/Sayid to be done to complete the mapping of the islet. What do you think?

You may be right with your observation about the "Ben-Showing-Sawyer-The-Main-Island-Scene" (I'll call it the BSSTMI-scene from now on, LOL). But I personally think we see a peninsula facing the Hydra islet and the rest of the island behind it. When Rousseau (or someone else) made the side view elevation map, she concentrated on drawing the "versant exposé"/"exposed slope" (see the caption on the map) which is actually this peninsula. Maybe the rest of the island was just too far away to catch any details or maybe she ran out of space on her drawing paper. But as I said, this is just my impression and I may be completely wrong.

I've added the blank/template version of my latest map to my last lost island map post. As said, feel free to use it to create your map (direct link to map template).

BTW, I'm glad that I'm not the only one catching new things in the maps/screenshots every time I look at them. Sometimes I think, I have been looking at some screenshots for just too long. I find some contradicting information and the seed of doubt is planted. But I guess that's what TPTB want... :-)

Getting the position of the Pala Ferry is a really hard task. But when I'll take a look at your previous findings, I'm very sure you'll find something new!

I'm looking forward to see your mappings!

MikeQuinn007 said...

Hey Losty,

I guess I'm all wet. Looking at the screen shots from the last episode puts Hydra south of the island without what I thought was a Side island. What I thought was the Side island is just an elevation view of the Peninsula. Echo did mention the peninsula to Ana Lucia as they were traving to the main camp to save time. That might be the "sloppiness" that Yung23 refering to. It may actually be accurate, but I wanted to confirm that before I posted on his website. If I'm right, other screen shots from that episode may prove very valuble concerning the South of the island. Of course, that is assuming TPTB weren't sloppy. Just so you know, I deleted my other post (trianlge post) from Yung23's website after reviewing the screen shots. The triangle still bothers me, but can't resovle it.



Just wanted to let you know before I start on the map.

LostySmurf said...

Ok, thanks Mike!

Don't worry about your triangle idea. I think you kicked something loose with it in my brain. Maybe we get more information from the show in the future.

BTW, I've published my new version of my Lost island map including some of your great contribution!

MikeQuinn007 said...

Hey Losty,

I'm glad I could help. I like your latest version. Thanks for the atttributes.
My last attempt at resolving the triangle invloves Rousseau's math on the evevation map. I don't know if her math concerns the triangle in the map, but it is math used for triangles.

I don't know if this will help you, but I placed this work on the followin attachment.

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/7531/oceanicmaptrianglepc4.jpg


Also, I was thinking if you could properly align this view in the larger drawing, you may be able to attach a scale to the larger island. I think this would help immensly in locating items, since the characters are constantly using direction and miles to describe locations. I'm sure you are doing this, but an accurate scale would help. If you allready have a scale, then this might be a good "sanity check"

LostySmurf said...

Hi Mike,

thanks for the screenshot and thoughts. I have to admit that I never put any effort in paying attention to the chaotic equations on the elevation map because I thought they were placed there as some kind of red herring. Now, taking a first serious look at them (with your notes), it makes some sense (cannot read the '?' marked equations either - except the '0 <= x <= Pi' behind F(x)).So there is a triangle with A=15.81; B=13 and C=9 (cancelling the 500 and using Pythagoras' theorem) and the calculated angle 55.29°. You're using this triangle with other dimensions (7900m, 6500m, 4500m). Two of this values can be calculated but where did you get a first value from?

I think we cannot be sure about any distances at the moment. Yung once made a grid and size estimation (based on the size of the Hydra island) but he didn't want it to be taken as a reference because he wasn't believing in it himself (the post can be found here). I'm still hoping for some new map screenshots in the upcoming episodes...

Totally agree that a scale would be very helpful and I will take it on my to-do-list for the next version. Though, I didn't noticed that characters were talking about actual distances that much. AFAIR, they often use time to describe distances (e.g. the sloppy "We'll need more than a day"). Unfortunately, my map isn't accurate enough to align it to the elevation map but I hope I'll find a way to provide a proper scale (or at least a theory for a scale :D).

MikeQuinn007 said...

Hi Losty
To answer your question, I simply multiplied all three values by 500 meters to get to her original values. For the variable your calling "c", I had to multipy the solution she had of "A" by 500 twice (500 squared). I think these values were the original arrangement, and she just reduced to the lowest common denominator.
The characters very often do use the term mile(s) (especially lock) Just do a transcript search and you will be amazed.

LostySmurf said...

Hi Mike,

ok, so you've calculated 13*500, 9*500 and 15.81*500, while Danielle divided each value by 500. She calculated the variables 'A' (= 15.81/500 = 0.0316) and 'B' (= 13/500 = 0.026) and because of that, I thought 'C' (= 9/500 = 0.018) was given (or calculated somewhere else). This is the reason why you had to multiply 500 twice (For 'B' and 'C' you multiplied only the numerator and for 'A' you took the whole term 15.81/500). However, I don't want to sound like a smartass here, I'm just trying to help. :)

I'll check the transcripts for 'mile' occurences and make a list of it. Thanks for the hint!

I've had some problems with my internet connection lately so sorry for the delays.

RunLostiesRun said...

Hey Losty,

I think I may have located Hydra Island. In episode 01x07, "The Moth", Sayid climbs the mountain right next to the fuselage to obtain "high ground" in his quest to triangulate Rousseua's radio signal. For a few frames, you can see an island from that vantage point.
Hydra Island from top of mountain

I revisited the map from "The Glass Ballerina, episode 03x02, and think I may have located the Looking Glass station. I had to adjust the tonal and color balance, but I think I may have been able to tease out the Hydra Station image on the map right where I would expect it. It's very hard to see, and they placed a pair of binoculars over Hydra island to hide it.

Hydra Station on map

The screen shot of Sawyer and Ben looking at the main Island really confirms the location if you simply look at the mountain arrangement and compare that to the maps. The islets are a little decieving in that they appear as one, but that would be expected due to their position, and the Sawyer's perspective.


Sawyer and Ben viewing main island from Hydra

I also added one of your maps with markings to emphasise and clear any misconceptions. I hope this makes it easier to understand

LostySmurf Map with markings

It's just an educated guess, but it makes sense to me. Let me know what you think.

Mike

P.S.

I think I may have also located the Swan Station hiding in clear view on one the the maps! I couldn't believe it when I saw it. I'll send you the link when I upload it.

RunLostiesRun said...

Hey Losty,

Sorry, I wasn't thinking, but you will have to download the "Hydra Station on map" and then enlarge it with a program to see the Hydra Station.

Mike

LostySmurf said...

Hey Mike,

sorry for the delay (still no DSL and phone at my new appartment... :( ).

Wow, thanks for your great observations.

Hydra island: The islet looks pretty much the same the ones we saw in several other screenshots so I guess it's sure to assume that it's the Hydra island. So this is a very good hint to determine the position of fuselage/hydra island. Absolutely fantastic!

Map & Panoramic shot: I see that there's something there in the HD screenshot and it could be the Hydra island. I remember a visitor of my site named Matt (see post) had a theory that the Hydra was somewhere in that area and his arguments would also support this theory. So I think you might be right and I can't see any contradicting aspects regarding this theory at the moment.

I think your getting pretty close in resolving the mystery of Ben's map and how everything is tied together. Really great work!

RunLostiesRun said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
RunLostiesRun said...

Hey Losty,

I'm not quite finished my map yet, but I thought it would interest you to look at your last screen cap of Hydra Island and your first screen cap of Pala Ferry dock (Hydra is just above Pala ferry dock in your 'Lost Map Locations' section). Notice anything?

Mike

Matt said...

Hi, I have "hydra island" in my RSS feeds. I noticed you refered to my post above. (like a month ago)

Does anyone have the image (from TLE I think) that shows the part of the map where the french crash site is located on the map. I think some Hanso guy was pointing at it. It was like roussaues(sp?) map but without text or anything.

I can't seem to find it anywhere but if I can get it, it might just prove a hypothesis I have and could be a major breakthrough in the map project.

Thanks.

LostySmurf said...

Hi Matt,

sorry, I haven't got any images from the map you mentioned.

Someone mailed me this one some time ago but I don't think it's the map you meant (and I wouldn't consider this one as canon with the show...).

RunLostiesRun said...

Hey Losty,

Did you get my post?

LostySmurf said...

Ooops. Sorry Mike,

I only noticed Matt's post and completely missed your comment. I'm so sorry and thanks for alerting me!

So looking at the screenshots, I would say it's very likely the same mountain/cliff shown on it and this was also discussed on Yung's thread some months ago. But I'm quite not sure about its significance. If it was the same mountain, why would the Pala Ferry dock be missing on it? Hmmm, either TPTB just needed a neat filming location for this scene or it actually has any deeper meaning. What do you think?

RunLostiesRun said...

Hey Losty,

From all the screen shots that I cataloged so far (250), TPTB have never used a sight simply for the effect. They are very, very strict about backgrounds being consistent. The point I was trying to make is that I believe Pala Ferry was/is used for Hydra Island and Submarine docking above water. I believe the view from the outside edge of the Pala Ferry dock and Hydra are similar because they are so close. I agree that we should see the Pala Ferry dock, but from two miles I would think it would be very hard without binoculars. I attached a screen shot of where I would expect Pala Ferry to be, but the distance is just too far.
I couldn't find the thread you mentioned, it would be interesting to read.

Expected Pala Ferry Location

Mike

LostySmurf said...

Hey Mike,

thanks for your comment and the screenshot. What I mean is that if you compare the Hydra island screenshot with the one of the Pala Ferry dock and respect the size of the islet shown in these images, then the Pala Ferry dock should be visible in the first screenshot (because it's a bit farther away from the camera). This is the thing that seems odd to me.

And the thread I mentioned above is Yung's map thread over at losttv-forum (see page 14).

RunLostiesRun said...

It is deceiving, but I think what makes it that way are the angles. I think pala Ferry is out of the camera's range in the Hydra photo. The view of the mountains is not the same, there is a difference in the angle, so the camera does not have the same position. I guess what I'm trying to say, is the view from Hydra is cropped so as not to include Pala Ferry, but also the the camera at Hydra is not in the same position as the camera shot of Pala Ferry (Pala must have been taken from a boat, where as Hydra would have been taken from the island.

Mike

Matt said...

I don't think it has to be the same place, but it could be.

Im cautious though because so many scenes are reused. For example the shot where Jack and the Others are leaving Hydra Island, and you can see the main island.. that's the same shot from season 1 where Hurley wanted Jin to pee on his foot.

I never really paid attention to background scenes until I visited:
lostvirtualtour.com

LostySmurf said...

Hey guys,

Mike,
you're probably right. The difference in size could be caused by the different angles. Plus, the Pala Ferry dock shot looks like it was made with a camera using a telephoto lens. I think your assumption about the location of the Pala Ferry dock on the screenshot you've posted is correct and it's somewhere in that area (maybe even behind that ridge).

Matt,
thanks for the link. I'll revisit the "pee on my foot" scene.

Wolfgang said...

Just a note on your guess the Hydra island might be south of the main island based on the shadows:

On the southern hemisphere at noon the sun is in the north. So if the island was on the southern hemisphere, at the point this picture was taken (we know that it moves), then the shadows would indicate, that the Hydra island is actually north of the main island.

Anonymous said...

^
| I too believe the Hydra is North of the camp, but also that the Hydra island is at the correct position on the map.

LostySmurf said...

Hi Wolfgang, that's correct. But they started their trip early in the morning (before dawn) and it shouldn't take too long on an island twice the size of Alcatraz to get anywhere on it (even with a low heart-rate).
Right after sunrise the sun would be somewhere East. So the remark about the shadow was meant to support the 'eastish' element.

Anonymous said...

Your blog keeps getting better and better! Your older articles are not as good as newer ones you have a lot more creativity and originality now keep it up!