Wednesday, January 3, 2007

Pala Ferry dock

Pala Ferry (left)Pala Ferry (back)Pala Ferry (right)Pala Ferry (sea)
  • Shouldn't be too far away from the Capsule dump and the Pearl station
  • Huge mountain/cliff to the right (see first screenshot)
  • Edit (02/26/07): MikeQuinn007 found another "X" on Danielle's map (see screenshot by MikeQuinn007). Maybe this marks the position of the Pala Ferry.
  • Edit (02/26/07): Sun, Jin and Sayid arrive in the morning at the Pala Ferry in S03E02 (Sun mentions her "morning sickness"). The 4th screenshot is taken shortly before their arrival. This could indicate that the mountain slopes in the background of this screenshot are facing east.

119 comments:

MikeQuinn007 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
MikeQuinn007 said...

Hey Losty,
I think you might be right concerning your suggestion that the new "x" might be Pala Ferry. In Wednesday's episode (S03E10), Hurley says " So then the Others take the bags off our heads, and we are, like, on the other side of the island. "

He says other side, not North.
He had to walk back, so he would know.
Anyway, I made some interesting screen shots of Pala Ferry that I have not seen before. Thought you might like them.

Mike


http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/9756/bensapproachjy9.jpg
http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/6893/leftview2hb5.jpg

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/9296/smallisletwq9.jpg
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/396/smallislet2si5.jpg
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/3774/smallislet3ex9.jpg

LostySmurf said...

Hi Mike,

I agree. 'Other side of the island' would actually mean north-east or east. In my other comment I was referring to the statements made by Sayid/Locke about Eko's stick ("Lift up your head and look north"). But you're right. After all, they're looking for Othersville and not the Pala Ferry.

Thanks for the screenshots. Of course I like 'em! I've seen this little islet before (at misfit's site, I think) but I'm not sure if it's really supposed to be there (you can only see these shots for a couple of frames, like the car in S03E01). So I'm pretty unsure about its significance. On the one hand, we get used to take note of every detail by TPTB, on the other hand they "recycle" some of their shooting locations ad nauseam (e.g. the Jurassic Park valley). So it's sometimes hard to distinguish. I don't want to blame TPTB, because they've very limited shooting time and are doing a great job. To cut a long story short: In this case I would tend to follow Occam's Razor and say that it's a production error. What do you think? Any indications that these islets might be of further significance?

MikeQuinn007 said...

Actually, it's only one islet, and it's far too small to be of any significance. It's far too small to be on the map. Since it's seen it from two separate perspectives, I think it's not a production error, it's just so small that it's not significant; I just thought you would like the screen shot.
Actually, Ben's boat approaching is even odder. From that screen shot to the boat docking is about 30 seconds. A boat that far away could never make it in that time.

To sum up, no the islet is of no significance. I think the direction of Ben's approach (from screen shot) is significant. If he approached from Otherville, he would be north of Pala Ferry and this location would make sense from that perspective. My only problem with that is where would the dock be and how could it Sayid miss it, unless it's hidden.

MikeQuinn007 said...

Hey Losty,

I don't think I was clear on an earlier post about scaling your drawing.

What I was thinking is as follows:

The penninsula is 5.82 miles wide as per the attached:

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/497/oceanicmaptriangleuq1.jpg

If you apply that to your plan view you would get the following:

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/6206/lostysmurfwithscalews3.jpg

I know you going to hate me for doing this, but what I did was to grid your map at one mile intravals to see if the scale was accurate. It is!

http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/9900/lostsmurfwithkey2mx4.jpg

If you agree with my logic, this would be very useful in identifying locations. It can't hurt. Let me know what you think,

Mike

MikeQuinn007 said...

Hey Losty,

I looked up Misfit's (He's a train wreck, LOL)) photo, and I just realized something. I bet that islet is Pala islet, and the ferry takes you there.
What do you think?

Mike

LostySmurf said...

Wow, thanks! I like the grid. The only thing I don't like is that you haven't also provided a metric grid. LOL :D

So you got the size of the peninsula from the Latitude scale on the left of the map? Are you sure it's correct? How did you determine that it's accurate? I've just gathered the information of the transcripts containing the term "mile" or "kilometer" for the list and Juliet stated that the Hydra island is 2 miles offshore. That wouldn't fit to any island islet on the map using your grid. The Hydra island should be about 800x75 meter (~ 0.5 x0.05 miles). If I hadn't had any size information at all, I would have guessed the peninsula is something like 2-5 kilometers wide.

I'll investigate and think about the boat scene. The direction of its approach is certainly a valuable clue.

Whoa, I'm really too slow for your posting frequency. I guess I'm getting old... :)

LostySmurf said...

The misfit rulez! :)

Hmmm, can't find the above mentioned picture again but I remember a discussion some months ago (at DarkUFO's). Someone was theorizing about the Hydra island being Pala referring to the book "Island" from Aldous Huxley. Well, I'm sure the parallels aren't coincidental. So this might either deliver some insight on the Other's long term objectives or be a red herring...
Even the whole main island could be Pala.

MikeQuinn007 said...

hey losty,

I know Juliet (and Ben, I think) said the island was 2 miles out, but I really think it is 4. Think about the screen shot from the main island, didn't it look much further than 2 miles. Anyway, I'm attaching a file that shows it being 4 miles by my scale, and that's exactly what your drawing show, so I think your island is positioned properly. The rest of the dimensions agree.

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/4447/hydradimensionjq9.jpg


There are 2 possibilities

1) The island is 2 miles out and all the rest of the dimenisions are wrong (even though they agree)

2) The island is 4 miles out and all the dimensions agree


What you don't know is I'm working on your template, and I think a lot of the locations can be tweaked. I'll send you a quick copy in a few minutes to let you think about it.

MikeQuinn007 said...

hey losty,

I know Juliet (and Ben, I think) said the island was 2 miles out, but I really think it is 4. Think about the screen shot from the main island, didn't it look much further than 2 miles. Anyway, I'm attaching a file that shows it being 4 miles by my scale, and that's exactly what your drawing show, so I think your island is positioned properly. The rest of the dimensions agree.

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/4447/hydradimensionjq9.jpg


There are 2 possibilities

1) The island is 2 miles out and all the rest of the dimenisions are wrong (even though they agree)

2) The island is 4 miles out and all the dimensions agree


What you don't know is I'm working on your template, and I think a lot of the locations can be tweaked. I'll send you a quick copy in a few minutes to let you think about it.

MikeQuinn007 said...

Hey losty,

I think your right. After looking at diferent distances, I think the grid is more acrurate at 1/2 mile intervals. I think we are on to something here!!


Anyway, I think we are moving forward!

The Misfit does rule! LOL

MikeQuinn007 said...

Hey Losty,

This is preliminary, but it's food for thought.

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/3006/lostsmurfupdatekn8.jpg

As far as Othervilles concerned, at 4:15 pm the sun isn't due west. Assuming they are close to the equator, the sun at 4:15 would be coming from 30 degress above west. This is assuming they are below the equator. Simply put, 6 AM to 6PM is 180 degees (It's how you make a Sun Dial, every hour is 15 degrees) With a working sundial, you have take into account the Latitude, but if you are close to the equator, you can discount this. This is why the sun isn't due west at the time of the plane crash, but at 60 degree if North is 0( 30 degree above West). When you look at the screen cap of Othervill and the trail of wreckage, take into account where the plane disintigrated, the view from other ville (use the sloped hill as a que), and your perspective (a very low angle, far away, at about 75 degree of off north.)

you said:
Whoa, I'm really too slow for your posting frequency. I guess I'm getting old... :)


Don't worry, I'm sure your younger than me. I'm 42. But I live in Philadelphia, so we probably live in different time zones.

Mike

BTW,

I'm always interested in people who follow this show's theory. Do you have one?

MikeQuinn007 said...

Added Desmonds boat.

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/4949/lostsmurfupdateqj6.jpg

MikeQuinn007 said...

sorry, I indicated wrong hatch, this is accurate

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/7259/lostsmurfupdate2dr4.jpg

MikeQuinn007 said...

Not that it makes any difference, but this is MisFit's photo
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/6180/jinbrotherislandiz9.jpg

LostySmurf said...

Hi Mike,

wow, totally awesome! I see you were busy as a bee. Thanks for your great input!

I also like to read people's theories but I have to admit that I haven't got my own unified theory. I would consider myself as a "man of science" but that doesn't mean I don't like the metaphysical elements. Being a huge fan of David Lynch's movies, I think it isn't always necessary to unravel every mystery (leaving some space for imagination). At the beginning I was pretty sure they were in purgatory (or later that DHARMA accidently built a gate to hell, "Event Horizon"-style) but since I started to hear the podcasts and read fan comments, I dismissed this idea. TPTB made a great job spreading literature references in the show to confuse the theorists so I guess nobody is close to their actual plan for the show. Nevertheless, there are very good ideas in some theories and I think they might be right (e.g. Desmond's flashes were corrupted by Smokey/the island, Kate has a secret agenda, ...). On the other hand there are some theories, I never will believe even if they were hinted or apparently explained by the show (e.g. the Others are the good guys).

Your map looks terrific and I also think we're moving forward! But here some thoughts: Using 0.5 mile intervals looks fine to me. Hmmm, but if we assumed that the plane was heading south/SSE and it broke up on that marked position the tail would have dropped in the opposite direction. Also, when you remember the scene of the plane breaking up (S03E01), I would tend to say it was closer to Othersville (on your map it would be more than 7 miles away). Your positioning of Othersville is similar to the one of Yung. I've an other theory about its position (see this map. Remark: I've made this some time ago so it isn't based on my current template). I know, it doesn't seem to fit perfectly into the landscape (because of this surrounding crateresque mountains) but IMO it's the only position that makes sense. This would result in a distance between Othersville and the plane break-up of 2-3 miles.

I think putting the Fake camp and statue a bit more to the south is ok, but I'm still wondering: What location was Sayid marking in the map in S03E02? They hadn't discovered the Pala Ferry at that time so I think it was either the Fake camp or the statue. Since the Fake camp seems to be of more importance to the Losties, I guess it was the Fake camp which was marked in the map. But I'm not 100% sure...

Hmmm, never thought of the Swan being that far away from the beach. I believe it's very close (~ 1 mile) to the caves. I guess, you were taking this from Locke's statement in season 1 when he tied up Boone. But Boone wasn't tied up at the hatch (Locke and Boone were wandering around when Locke knocked him out).

BTW, you're right with your assumptions about the time zones and my age. I always thought I would be an "old-timer" with an age of 29. I'm from and living in old Europe, so you can add ~ 6 hours to your local time... :)

MikeQuinn007 said...

The strange part about the plane breaking up is that somehow the trail of the tail seems to be drifting backwards. When the camera pans back, I think the view from the camera changes from the view of othervilles, in that the the camera is taking a more eastardly view, and as it takes a panoraric scene to capture both crash sites, its low in the sky. I know it doesn't make sense for tail to drift back, but look at the scene again. That is the only position I could get that agrees with the terain.

Anyway, if you place your tail section where you have it, how do you avoid looking at the Northern face of Mountains from the Tailies beach. When the tailies look out at theo cean, they sould see nothing but water.

I did think Locke and Boone were on there way to the hatch when Locke struck him. I thought as they were headed to the Hatch, Boone was explaining to Locke how hard it's been to keep it a secret from his Sister. I remember they passed over the same stream leading to the Hatch, and boone found his sister's body on the banks of that stream. I guess I'll have to revisit that scene. But it could be a couple of miles closer to the caves.
You're right about the Fake camp being closer to the north, that was a simple mistake. I did want to locate at Sayids mark.

LostySmurf said...

Yeah, thought the Tail fell down and headed slightly west so the viewer gets the impression it's moving backwards (see this screenshot). Hmmm, my whole placements of Othersville and the tail section are based on the panorama screenshot and the angle between the two crash sites (marked in the map). Also see the three ridges at the horizon (the blue, purple and cyan markings). So the blue marked mountain is actually sloppily drawn in my map because it should expand to the coast. When we take a look at the right side of the Taillies beach, we can see this ridge in the background. So I think the Taillies beach is facing west or NWW providing an unblocked view onto the ocean. I believe you can even see the other side of the bay when looking to the right from the Taillies beach but I'm not sure about that (guess, I've to rewatch TO48D tonight :) ).

AFAIR, Locke and Boone were heading back to the beach (but this results in the same dilemma) but I'm not sure about that anymore either (guess, I've to rewatch S02E13 too :D).

LostySmurf said...

When we take a look at the right side of the Taillies beach...

oh boy, not again. Of course I meant left side.

MikeQuinn007 said...

I guess I'll have to watch those episodes again too :)

Can you believe there have been 60 episodes allready?

I tried to convey my thoughts on a map, but I'm not as good as you are.

What bother's me about your location for the tail,is i really can't see how yo u can get a clear view of the Ocean, without seeing the Islets or the ridge. I thought it was just a clear ocean, but i'll recheck. I'll attach the map, let me know what you think.

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/2317/oceanic815zn2.jpg

BTW, this is hard work. LOL. We should be gettin paid. At least you should.

LostySmurf said...

Ok, just rewatched S02E13. Boone and Locke were at the hatch trying to figure out how to open it. The next scene they were heading back for the beach camp discussing the above mentioned Shannon issue. Locke struck Boone down and said: The camp is four miles due west. On his way back, Locke met Sayid, who afterwards told Jack at the caves he saw Locke about a mile east.

Having this said, I think you're right. The Swan is somewhere east beyond the river. I think the grid is really a great help and a useful tool to get a rough estimation of distances. I'll make some measurements and look for some more clues to verify its accuracy (after I've watched TO48D).

Yeah, 60 episodes. I'm starting to forget about things happened back in season one. LOL. And your map is perfect to convey your thoughts (you should see my 5-minute-sketch for this theory :)). But something I have to add: My mountain mappings are VERY sketchy and may differ in some points from Rousseau's original mappings (compare them to my old map)! So I wouldn't use them as a landmark/reference point.

Now some comments on your flightpath theory: When you draw a line between the tail section crash site and Othersville and another one between the Fuselage crash site and Othersville you'll get an angle between those lines. In your map this angle would be nearly 90° and I think that's too big (even for a wide-angle lense). Now take other points and do the same. I'm often using these virtual angles in my mind (or on sketches) to get a better impression of screenshots. So if you take a look at the left end of your blue marked mountain ridge. There are three other ridges between it and Othersville (violet, green and red). On your map, the red one is missing because it's the extension of the blue one. Also note that the blue ridge seems to be perpendicular to the virtual line between Othersville and the middle red dot. A line between Othersville and the orange dot is crossing water on the screenshot in contrast to your map.

This screenshot is really tricky and hard to analyze because it doesn't fit anywhere.

BTW, cool Avatar! :D

LostySmurf said...

Here a bunch of screencaps of the right side of the Taillies beach:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7

It looks like there are some mountains at the horizon. So I think the beach of the Taillies could be facing NW or NWW.

MikeQuinn007 said...

Hi, Losty,

I just finsished watching the same scene. I have to admit, I didn't see that when I first watched it.

The question I have though is, could the right side be a view of the penninsula on the North Side of the Island?

LostySmurf said...

Hi Mike,

yeah, I also didn't see this before (guess, I was always focussing on the action :)). But you're right. I guess this could also be the small/thin peninsula on the north side.

I was just trying to relocate the other DHARMA stations (moving the Swan station east of the river) and I'm making good progress in getting a proper scale. I'll post some drafts later.

LostySmurf said...

Found this quote in S02E01:

JACK: Uh, Locke found, uh, a hatch in the ground about a half a mile from here. We left to blow it open so that we could hide inside -- so all of us could hide inside, in case -- but that doesn't matter now because it's not going to work. There's no way for all of us to get down in there tonight.

LostySmurf said...

I've added the list of distance references and a preliminary grid and scale to my map. IMO, the main problem is the size of the Hydra island. I've added a tiny islet below the island to illustrate its "correct" size according to the current scale and the Alcatraz size information provided by Wikipedia. So Alcatraz is 0.0763 km² --> Hydra island: ~ 0.1526 km². This would be a square of 400m x 400m or a rectangle of 800m x 200m. Assuming the island would occupy approximately 70% of this rectangle, the island could be something like 800m x 300m (= 0.5 miles x 0.19 miles). What do you think?

MikeQuinn007 said...

Hey losty, I really like the distance references that you found. I think that will help. The Hydra change looks good.

Something I don't understand though is for some reason, our scales don't quite agree. This small difference could be a problem, depending on which one you select.

LostySmurf said...

Hi Mike, I wasn't comparing my grid with yours when I made it. I simply varied the size of a mile between 30 and 40 pixel to probably find a scale that would agree to the location distances as well as the size of the Hydra island in some way (unfortunately, there wasn't any ...). After that I compared it to your grid and it's nearly the same scale (your grid for a mile has 38x37 pixel, mine has 40x40). The difference doesn't matter because there aren't any exact values given in the show and I think this won't cause any problems. Or do you think it might sum up in a significant difference on long distances?

MikeQuinn007 said...

I think the difference could be signigicant on larger distances and may be compounded if items are positioned relative to each other based on disance (the fist item may be slighty off, but the second item, if placed relative to the first, would incur that offset and it's position would therefore be off by a larger amount.

LostySmurf said...

Ok, I've added a 37X37 pixel grid so we have a consistent grid. Hmm, but it looks like there's still a small offset. I'm using a 37x37 pixel sized image which has a 1 pixel wide line at the left and at the top while the rest is transparent. Then I flood fill a layer with this pattern. Which tool do you use to generate your grid?

Here's the link to the updated draft

I like the tiny Hydra islet (though, it still has to be a bit closer to the main island). But I'm wondering if that's the size Rousseau had in mind. I know it's hard to estimate the size of an island from afar but it just looks wrong... somehow. :)

I think, we're making real good progress here. So thanks again for your input!

MikeQuinn007 said...

Hey losty,
I don't think the offset is substantial. Anyway, I'll use your template so we are consistant.

You convinced me my Otherville is wrong, but not that your's is right :)
There was a line in a movie that I'll never forget. It was a seasoned detective trying to impart his knowlegde to a rookie. What he said was "The biggest mistakes most detecives make is formulating the murder in their mind early, and then forcing the evidence to comply with thier interpretation, discounting what doesn't agree and emphasizing what does"


It's not a bad lesson. You have to be open minded and realize when your wrong.

Anyway, I'm going back to the drawing table to figure out Otherville. What I forgot is that the fuselage didn't land on the beach. It cartwheeled thru the jungle, acording to Sayid. I can't remember why we thought Hydra was the Lower island. What about Hydra being the Eastern island?
I'm sure there's a reason, I just can't remember. Old age. LOL

As far as my grid, I used 1/2 inch and 1/4 inch. I don't have a really good software (actually, I do have Autocad 2000, but I don't know how to use it)
What I've been using is Corel Photo Paint 8.
What program are you using. I'm sure I could get a copy of it if I knew the title. I would really like to use a progran like that.

As far as Hydra and the islet are concerned, I would look at the screen shots. As far as I remember, the islet is very shallow in height, but fairly long.

LostySmurf said...

Hi Mike,

I totally agree and nice movie quote (was that from Se7en?). I'm also not 100% sure about the position of Othersville but I haven't found a better alternative yet. It's really hard to spot on the map and I don't believe there are production errors in the panorama view because it looks computer generated. So I'm trying my best to stay open minded and I'm always glad if someone points me to an error on my map (eventually, the whole map is a theory) or found a better theory. I hope you didn't get the impression I'm trying to adhere to my theories too stubbornly. If this should happen in the future, just use this virtual free-your-mind-hammer (†, by typing '†') to bring me back to reason. :)

IMO, the Hydra island is likely to be somewhere else. As with Othersville, it's position was also determined by a CGI (the Ben-Showing-Sawyer-The-Main-Island-Scene --> BSSTMI ;) ) based on the observations and conclusions of Yung. I'm still unsure about it's actual position (this is why I haven't changed the text of the "Hydra island" original post), so here are my thoughts: I think, from the BSSTMI-view it could be any of the shown islands on my map (also note that the shadow of Sawywer's legs indicates that they're somewhere East or NE, SE). I believe the seen peninsula in this view could be the one in the East, the one South-East or even the crater in the South.

Hmmm, I hardly remember this statement of Sayid of the fuselage crash, but wasn't it a theory of him? Do you remember which episode it was?

I know AutoCAD from my studies but I don't think it would be the appropriate tool to create maps. Corel Photo Paint is good but I'm not so familiar with its handling. I'm using PaintShopPro 6 to create my maps (it's very old but also very fast). I got it some years ago bundled with a magazine. It's quite convenient, because I can put the different items (ocean, landscape, labels, ...) on seperate layers and edit them independently. Some neat filters can be applied on a Layer to generate effects like e.g. semi-transparency (see ther grid or blast door map lines). Maybe you can find PSP6 somewhere but the publishing company JASC was sold to Corel...
Hmmm, just googled a bit and found out the shareware version is still available. I'll pm you my psp-file to your lost-tv-forum account.

MikeQuinn007 said...

Hey Losy, concerning the software, thanks, but I'll just stick with what I have. I'm sure it's not much different that yours. It has layers,masks, texture,etc. It's very similiar to PhotoPaint. It's old, but runs ok.

As far a the Sayid quote, It's in Season 1, Episode 7, The Moth.

KATE: What we're doing -- chasing some phantom distress signal -- what are the odds of this working?

SAYID: No worse than the odds of us surviving that plane crash.

KATE: People survive plane crashes all the time.

SAYID: Not like this one. The tail section broke off while we were still in the air. Our section cart wheeled through the jungle and yet we escaped with nothing but a few scrapes. How do you explain that?

KATE: Blind, dumb luck?

SAYID: No one's that lucky. We shouldn't have survived.


I don't know how Sayid knows this, or If it's just his theory.

I think the movie quote is from "Departed", but I'm not sure. I'll have to check.

LostySmurf said...

Hi Mike,

thanks for clarifying that. Hmmm, Sayid usually tends to be on the right track and it doesn't sound like he's theorizing. But I guess this wouldn't have any effect on the position of the Fusies camp. Or do you think it would?

Unfortunately, I haven't seen 'The Departed' yet but it's ranking very high on my Still-to-watch list (I like most of Scorsese's movies). I don't want to trouble you for searching the quote, just thought you had it still in mind. :)

MikeQuinn007 said...

Hey Losty,

I'm attaching my new guess of Othersville. What make's selection of othersville a good choice, is that it would suggest Hydra on it's coast. Why not have your work island close to your home? Hydra would be the east island. This island agree's with the 2 mile distance, not the 4 miles that the southern island is. Instead of the other's marking a line North in the whole island that the Fusie's couldn't pass, it may have only been their pinisula.

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/386/othersvillac6.jpg

What do you think

LostySmurf said...

Hi Mike,

thanks for your terrific ideas. IMO, your suggestion for the Hydra island is great. It doesn't have the correct size according to the scale but that's the same problem with the island in the South. And of course, it's much easier for the Others to guard only the peninsula than the whole north of the island.

Another good argument for your Othersville theory is Danielle's elevation map with the "crater" caption: That caption might point to the crateresque terrain surrounding Othersville. What do you think?
Also, the black smoke in the season 1 finale was coming from this direction. It seems as if it was set up by Danielle but maybe she did it in this area because she knows the Others have their "home" there.

Regarding the terrain, your theory is the best so far. It just fits perfectly there. But IMO, there are some points that would contradict your theory:
1. I don't think the Taillies beach is facing East. The position of the sun in TO48D indicates they're facing N or NW. I know, this is also somehow contradicting my theory that we are looking West from the Taillies beach, but there were similar issues with the beach of the Fusies (in the early episodes of season 1). So sun position could be an error. Hmmm, or maybe the pillar of smoke at the beach isn't coming from the tail section but from some other fragment of the plane.
2. Even if the fuselage cartwheeled through the jungle before it stopped at the beach, I would say that it's impossible to do that for such a huge distance. Maybe a mile but not something more than 10 miles. I think the trees would have torn the fuselage apart and a wide aisle in the jungle would remain. Hmmm, maybe the fuselage crashed on the other side of the island (close to the marking Sayid made in S03E02). Does that make any sense?
3. Othersville would be very close to the area in which Sayid assumes Danielle's hideout. So I guess, she would have found it sooner or later. But to be honest, I don't trust her. Beeing of the island for 16 years without seeing anyone... I simply don't buy that. So I'm really waiting to hear some line from her like "This looks familiar" or "I've been here before" when they reach Othersville in one of the next episodes. Kudos to the brain washing techniques of the Others :D

TPTB have hinted that the Lost island may be of much bigger size then the audience would expect. Sorry, I have no source for that (it was posted some months ago at DarkUFO's). But this statement is still flying around in my mind on every discussion about the scale. Though, it could be a red herring...

I really hope we get some more information in the next episodes...

I'm sorry that my answer is quite long again but it's sometimes hard for me to state my point in a few words (I've to work on that but I fear it wouldn't be shorter in my native language either). :)

MikeQuinn007 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
MikeQuinn007 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
MikeQuinn007 said...

Hey losty,

I don't think your posts are long. I'm amazed you can exress yourself so well in a language that's not native. Your english is better than 95% of the people who post, including me :)

Anyway, I posted another map that incorporated your very insightful comments.

I'm not too worried about the directon the beach faces, since it's very possibe for it to face NW, (see map with inset)

I don't think the sceen shot actually shows a crater. I think the "crater" is just the fingers of the mountain taken from a deceptive perspective.

You are right about the plane cartwheeling such a long disntance.
Then I tought, there was still a wing attached to it, to provide lift, so it could have traveled to the beach area, just that its contrail was blocked by the high mountan. The black smoke we see is more likely from the left wing (with fuel) crashing into the mountain top.

As far a Rousou is concerned, she knows where otherville is. She has to if she's the one who detailed the maps. How could she miss them?
Even if otherville was on the North side of the island, she would have to know exactly where they are.

16 years is a long time. I would know everything about that Island within 1 year.

Anyway, as always, looking forward to your comments.

BTW, I deleted a couple of posts only because of changes I made to the map.

http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/8936/othersvillyh1.jpg

MikeQuinn007 said...

Hey losty,

I adjusted the brightness, and contast to emphasise there is a slight differece in the color of the clouds where a possible fusalage path could take place. In my earlier post I said that the fuselage smoke path was blocked by the mountain. Disregard that.


Mike

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/1190/possilbefuselagepathjk2.jpg

LostySmurf said...

Thanks for the compliment! I guess I've a good dictionary. :)

I agree with you that Othersville is not inside a crater and it only looks as if it is from certain perspectives (that's what I tried to express with the term "crateresque"). Danielle uses some kind of poetic/figurative names to illustrate certain items on her elevation map (e.g. "Mosquito coast", "Blue lagoon", "Bay of crabs",...). So it wouldn't be a big surprise if she calls some crater-looking terrain "le crater" on her elevation map.

Sorry that I didn't noticed it before but there's a missing coastline in the screenshot (see my yellow comments in your map). Something else is that I still can't see how the Taillies beach could be facing NW (looks NE to me).

I like the "Othersville at night" screenshot (it even looks like some lights are on in Othersville). ;)
But I think your marking could also be just some clouds because it would be a very odd path of the fuselage and it doesn't look like smoke to me. I would rather tend to say the path of the fuselage wasn't visible and took place above this view.

BTW, did you manage to import the PSP file I've send you to your lost-tv account?

LostySmurf said...

Oops, I forgot: That's fine how you update your comments. Unfortunately, there isn't any other way to edit comments. You could also just keep the old comment posted and insert only the link for the updated picture in a new comment (then you don't have to do all the copy & paste).

MikeQuinn007 said...

You are probably right that the fuselage may be above the view.

I think most of the coast you mentioned is hidden, and the balance is too far away. The focus that far away is poor and I don't think you could distinguish a flat coastline with the ocean.

I was able to download your file, thanks, but it's very similiar to my program, so I think I'll just continue with what have. Thanks for the file, though


http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/4892/coastdh9.jpg

LostySmurf said...

Yeah, looks better on the map screenshot. Seems my map isn't accurate enough in that area. I will fix this.

Also think, PhotoPaint is a good alternative. However, I have phrased my question mistakable:
I don't mean the program file of PSP I've posted here, but the image file of my island map, which has the proprietary PSP-format (='PSP-file'). I've sent you a private message to you user account at the forum where Yung is posting, containing a link to my image file (don't want to publish it publicly). Thought it might help you to be able to access the different layers instead of the plain/flat image. Since Corel bought PSP, PhotoPaint may have an import feature for PaintShopPro image files (but I'm not sure about that). Also note, that the graphic file is huge (>6 MB).

MikeQuinn007 said...

Oh, I misunderstood you concerning your file. I'll download this file. Thanks a lot. I think I should be able to acces the layers, etc. with Photo-Paint. Thanks a lot

MikeQuinn007 said...

Hey Losty, thanks.

I downloaded the map_v3.psd file and it works perfectly with Corel Photo-Paint 8. I'm able to distinguish all you layers, ect.

The other files didn't work, although
The tif file does display, it merged all the object with the background.

Thanks again,

Mike

LostySmurf said...

You're welcome and I'm glad it works. I'll delete the files from the site now and stick to the PSD-format for future updates.

I'm really excitedly waiting for tonights episode... :D

LostySmurf said...

Whoa, "Enter 77" was great (though, the plot was quite predictable). Finally, some more clues for the mappers.

Some information I got from this episode:
- they were walking for two days with a bearing of 305°.
- maybe they started from somewhere near the Swan: The line on the BDM between Swan & Flame has the exact angle for a bearing of 305°.
- they have a mountain ridge at their back when they arrive at the place close to the Flame.
- if you follow the bearing of 305 from the Flame you'll get to Othersville on my map (assuming there's still an offset of the magnetic north). But the barracks seem to be left on Sayid's cable map and I doubt that Sayid will continue to follow Locke's bearing.
- Pearl orientation video says: "At the end of your 8 hour shift, proceed to the Pala ferry which will take you back to the barrack". What does that mean for the position of Othersville, the Pala Ferry and the Pearl?

Hmmm, I have to think about this some more...

MikeQuinn007 said...

What does BDM stand for. I didn't catch the oreintation video comments. That was a very smart catch. I'm not sure what "barracks" mean. I really don't think "barracks" means otherville. I think barracks refers to a rear defensive position in an armed struggle. This could have been Hydra. The water may have acted as a natural barrier that their enimies couldn't breach. For some reason, Darma, The Others, and possibly a third group refered to as the 'Hostiles' seemed to engage in an armed stuggle for reasons we don't know.

LostySmurf said...

Hi Mike,

when I made my maps, I tried to take the information from the blast door map (=BDM; the UV-light map seen by Locke in the "Lockdown" episode of season 2, S02E17) into account. If you take a look at the angle of the line between Swan and Pearl and the line between Swan and Flame, you'll see that it's 55 degree, which is equivalent to a bearing of 305 degree (assuming the top of the BDM is North).

Since the Pearl orientation video (from S02E21, "?"), I've been wondering about the barracks so I liked Sayid's idea of the barracks being Othersville (and Patchy's reaction seems to support that). But if that's true, it would mean that the Others had a different "home" previously (in the Pre-DHARMA era) and moved into the barracks not until the "purge". I think the term "barracks" was chosen intentionally by DHARMA. It was used as the living quarters for the DHARMA members but the term "barracks" reminded them that they weren't there on holiday but rather on a military/scientific project. The term "barracks" is also used in the official DHARMA operation manual so I wouldn't think it's the Hydra.

Two points in that episode really seems odd to me: 1. They travelled two days to get to the Flame, while they needed one day to pass the Pearl/beechcraft twice in the season one finale (it's quite the same distance on the BDM, so I'm starting to think it has something to do with the terrain). 2. The barracks are on the left of the cable map (I hope that doen't mean West).

I'm really supporting the idea of a third group of people on the island. Well, I think there's no real evidence for a third group at the moment but IMO it would be great for the buildup of suspense.

MikeQuinn007 said...

I also support a third group. I don't think we've seen the Hostiles yet.

I didn't think the Blast door map was accurate, but I guess it is. I think Kelven mentioned Radinsky had a photographic memory.

There's a lot of information to process from the last episode (I think the best so far this season)

You probably are right concerning the barracks. It's just an unusual term for a suburban setting, but it evolved into suburbia, not a planned community.

I havn't had a chance to study the Flame Station maps yet, although I noticed a dotted line. I think this might be the security system we see in next weeks promo. It might be a strong, sensitive telso coil that simply registers a disruption in the magnectic field and activate one/two alarm(s) locally (to locate the breach). I havn't downloaded the episode yet, so I don't have any good screen shots, except what's available.

I guess what I don't understand, is why they are trying to get to Otherville. I thought their purpose was to rescue Jack. We know Jack is at Otherville, but Kate doesn't. Kate still thinks he's on Hydra. Why is Sayid trying to locate Otherville? Although Kate knows they only work at Hydra, I don't think she realize that Jack's been transported (unless I missed that part)

Anyway, as far as the compass setting of 305 is concerned, I think we can safely assume that's a true bearing. I'm pretty sure Locke said they had a compass bearing of 305, which indicates that he adjusted for the islands declination.

I think the terrain would account for the long travel. Look at the size of the mountain to their rear. The flame is in a valley. They had to travel a straight line if following a compass bearing (couldn't take easier bypassing routes). They may have had to transverse more than one mountain.


Sorry about the legth of the post.

LostySmurf said...

Thanks for your suggestions. The length of your post is perfect and it's also a very good read.

If I remember correctly, I once read something like (maybe SPOILER ahead) "there are other Others in other places" (hope, this wasn't meant as funny line). And in one of Kristin's last spoilers she was mentioning a subterranean character...
(End of possible SPOILER)

Regarding information, "Enter 77" was definetly the best episode this season so far, but the plot wasn't one of my favorites (IMO, it was quite predictable that Patchy is on the side of the Others, would shoot Ms Klugh and Sayid actually tortured the woman, ). Though, very good acting of Sayid/Naveen.

I agree that the dotted line could be the security fence made of tesla coils. This was my first impression when I heard the sound in the end of the promo. The screencaps from DarkUFO are excellent (1250x685 pixel).

You haven't missed anything (or I've missed it too) and I would also say that Kate still thinks Jack is being kept in the Hydra. Maybe it's their strategy to surprise the Others or they're planning to get some Others to trade them for Jack.

The compass bearing of 305 degree (disregarding any north offset) would mean that you have straight line pointing North (0°) and rotate it to the right by 305 degree, correct? Therefore, the remaining angle would be 55° (360° -305°). And that's the exact angle between the Swan-Pearl and Swan-Flame line on the BDM. The Swan-Pearl line is pointing North on the BDM. So what I tried to say is: When they (Kate,Sayid,Locke) used a location near the Swan as the starting point to apply the bearing of 305°, this would lead them to the Flame station.

According to Sayid's compass, they're travelling towards the mountains. This could be an error or poor editing but if you follow Sayid's movement you'll see that the direction they came from is right of him. It's pretty odd...

LostySmurf said...

Addendum:

There's a missing mountain ridge on my map between the Swan and Flame station. Sorry for that flaw. I'll update the map soon.

And another thing I found: The security fence from the promo is also mentioned on the BDM (see caption at the top "No stations post security barrier")

MikeQuinn007 said...

Hey Losty

The fact that the "security system" is mentioned on the Blast door map is very interesting.

I finally had a chance to download the episode (Bit Torrent) and I'm attaching some of the Flame map screen shots you may be able to use. One interesting marking on the "Barracks" map is what appears to be a circle. I can't tell what it is, but it may be a North Arrow or a Darma logo. See what you think.

After watching the ending of the show again, Sayid is under the impresion that Jack and Alex are at Otherville, but he says this to Mikhail out of Kate's earshot.


http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/5809/flamemap01bj9.png
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/8357/flamemap02tw9.png
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/170/flamemap03gh8.png
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/2820/flamemap04ob1.png
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/5589/flamemap05az3.png
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/9643/flamemap06mc4.png
http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/8927/flamemap07th0.png

LostySmurf said...

Hi Mike,

thanks for the screencaps. Hmmm, the round thing on the map looks more like a north arrow to me than a DHARMA logo. What do you think about the facility marked with a '5' between the Flame station and Barracks on your screencaps? Looks like a station or some underground aisles.

I've made some updates on my map (added the missing ridge and some neat dharma logos). I still have to think about the position of some locations so there are no big changes here. You can also download the updated psd file if you want (you know where to find it :)).

Looking at the promos, I believe the next episode will be awesome too.

MikeQuinn007 said...

Hey losty

I assumed that item 5 was a layout for the barracks. See attached screen shot with notes.

You may be right and it may be something else completly. In typical Lost fashion, they give you just enough informaion to hang yourself, so to speak.

Anyway, see what you think. I also think that the Circle is a Norht arrow, but I didn't want to discount the logo possibility.

Also, Mikhail said the Flame acted as a Hub. Do you think it's only for communications? Or do you think Power is also distributed from the Flame. If so, everybody (all station) may be without power.

http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/1926/flamemapitem5xg5.jpg

Oh, I'll download your map when in a little bit, thanks :)

LostySmurf said...

You're right. After watching the scene again and looking at the screenshots of the cable map, I would also say that item '5' is part of the barracks. According to Sayid, the map is showing data as well as electrical cabling. Though, I'm not sure if the Flame was also responsible for power distribution. I guess all stations and security barriers will be fully operational. On the other hand, it would be nice to see the Others really pissed off because they weren't able to listen to their CDs ... :)

BTW, I found some information about the round symbol on the mountain top (on Danielle's map). It's marking a Gaging station.

MikeQuinn007 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
LostySmurf said...

Hey Mike,

I'm fine, thanks. Your map looks awesome! How long did it take to get the mountains that accurate? Looks to me like a perfect copy of Rousseau's map and I love especially the northern part of your map. Some proportions in the South seem odd to me (e.g. the crater and the eastern peninsula) but I guess I just got used to the layout of my map. I have to take a longer look at it comparing it to the screenshots.

I know it's really hard to start making a map from the scratch. At first, I tried to rotate screenshots and to transform the perspective to 2D. But this made the screenshots very blurry and unusable. So I took the (very) long road to use each screenshots to draw the visible part by hand (but using some reference points on the adapted screenshots and interpolating the area in-between). This was better (and easier) regarding proportions but also resulted in a worse accuracy. So I think you've a much better accuracy in your coastlines and details.

Have you resized your map or is it the original size you've posted?

MikeQuinn007 said...

No, the actual size is 30x30 inches. I tried to duplicate the actuale map in size and acruacey. You would not believe how tedious that is. I really think this is the best way to determine the location of different items. When I'm confident on the final map, I'll send you a Photoshop copy so you can play around with it.
I was also a little suprised at the final shape ( but actually amazed how close we really were, but when you compare the acual screen shots, you will realize that the top is not how we envisioned it. I still have a lot of work to go, but I'm getting there. LOL

MikeQuinn007 said...

Hi Losty,

In response to you questions:

The crater was very hard to draw freehand, but I'll tale another look at the screen shot ( I think thats from "Whatever the Case may Be" ). I'll also take another look at the eastern penisula. I think that I had a hard time finding a good representive screen shot of that, but I'll try.

Thanks for the input!!

I started off by hand drawing and scanning it into a drawing, then working with that. It took me two weeks, about 3/4 hours a day so far! Very tedious. It took me 2 hours to draw the whale! LOL.

I also tried to alter the perspective, but like you said, it get's very blurry. Do you know French? I was able to uncover some terms on the map in French that have not been addressed yet. I think it has to do with Rousseau's initial expedition. I'll attach it. The first part is very blurry, but there seems to be a couple of word you might be able to make out. I've found a few other items like that.

Anyway, I'm glad you like the map. I think when I'm done I'm going to make a true copy (30inchx30 inches) using a comercial copy store and frame it to hang! Why not?

I deleted my earlier post because I only wanted you to have my copy until it's finished.

I was thinking about Rousseau's X marks. Do you think they could be actually be cross marks, rather that X marks? Do you think they could be locations of graves? I'll send you my progress as I get further along. Could you post your Email at the same location I downloaded from you so I can use that to send you my updates? Thanks again. :)


http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/1815/glassballerinaredoneju0.jpg

MikeQuinn007 said...

Hey losty,

I forgot to mention, but what really helped me more than anything is the Longitudinal/Latidudinal lines on the screen shots. I was able to reference those for an accurate location.

LostySmurf said...

Hey Mike,

wow, respect for the amount of time you've invested. And the whale is very neat. Your map is definitely a great item to decorate your office or living room (I've a huge Middle Earth map hangin in mine).

I've compared your map with my screenshots and I think it's really great. I couldn't find any flaw. I agree that the Longitudinal/Latidudinal lines are a really great help to partition the map and also to transform the perspective. And the best screenshot from the eastern peninsula I got is the one you've posted when you detected the tiny islet. Hmmm, I don't know where I got this one from but I found it on my hd.

I had French lesson in school for 4 years but I was very bad (I even had some wrong translations in the first version of my map :) ) and therefore started Latin in school. Unfortunately, my French skills aren't good enough to read anything from the screenshot you've posted (except for the last word in the second line 'pour' which means 'for', but this doesn't help much). But if you find some notes in Latin or German I may be a better help. :)
Plus, I've to admit that I'm really bad in reading Rousseau's notes and I'd never been able to decipher the equations on Rousseau's map like you did.

You can use my public E-Mail address lostysmurf(at)googlemail.com

Hmmm, the X marks I've seen definitely looked like 'X's and not like '†'. Though, I think it could be possible that crazy Rousseau marked the spots where she buried her crew members. Hmmm, but that would mean the X marks didn't have any signinficance for us, or do they?

BTW, have you listened to the latest official ABC podcast? DL&CC made some great comments about the islets on the map shown in season 1.

MikeQuinn007 said...

hey losty,

Thanks for your time and comments. They were very helpful. I've redrawn the crater area, and I'm working on various mountians.

Anyway, while looking at a map screen shot from "Whatever the Case may be", I noticed some odd writing with an arrow pointing to the edge of the mountain. I thought you might find it interesting. I'm sure it's not possible to decipher, but I wonder what's so important that she marked it? I attached a screen shot,but you can probably download a better view.

Thanks,

Mike.

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/7990/unusual01xz0.png

LostySmurf said...

Hey Mike,

thanks for the screenshot and your comment. It's amazing how you always find these details. Great work!

I know this inscription from other screenshots (e.g. this one) and I was also wondering what it could be. I always thought it would be some notes about the Dark Territory because I haven't seen that there's an arrow. It looks like a horizontally mirrored '7' and it's bigger than any other letter of the writing so I think you are absolutely right.

Hmmm, but what could it mean? Maybe it points to Danielle's hideout or the Blackrock. This might be odd because Sayid haven't investigated this inscription (or at least, it wasn't shown). But that seems to be the usual behaviour of the survivors: Don't communicate with each other and don't be too curious about the island's locations ;). Maybe the arrow points to a station, the beechcraft or the position where the Others kidnapped Alex. What do you think?

And what do you think of Exposé? I think it was a good (not great) episode but I don't understand why so many people didn't like it.

MikeQuinn007 said...

Hey Losty

As far as the incription with the arrow, I havn't the faintest idea what she(Rousseua) had in mind. My guess (only a guess) would be it's where she's hiding or perhaps the Dharma food drops.

Unfortunatly, I have been working on the details of my map and haven't had the time to locate items. That's next, but a long time off. LOL

I found another item (the only reason I'm finding these has to do with the fact that I'm trying to duplicate the Map, so I'm looking at individual mountains, etc.)

This item is a small cirlce with a dot in the middle. I located it on the attached screen shot. I'm not sure if it's anything, but I thought you might be interested. It looks like it might be a hatch cover. (There also seems to be an arm)

I was listening to the official ABC Podcast like you mentioned. It does seem to indicate that Hydra is the islet from the Map overlays. What is your take?

I also listened to an unofficial podcast

http://www.lostcasts.com/

They applauded your site and provided the link. I also corrected a blogger who provided a link to your site (typo error) on DarkUFO's site. Congrats!


The screen shot of the item is

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/541/whateverthecasemaybe01xul0.png

I liked expose becouse it provided a different perspective of what was happening. I couldn't believe Paola didn't warn the losties of Ben's plans (maybe he did though).

I liked it because it showed the wrath of the island. I think a lot of people want the story to move quicker and answers faster. Another interesting item from the Official
Podcast is that the Others(Hostiles) did not know about the hatches (they were controlled by Dharma only) before Oceanic 815 crashed.

MikeQuinn007 said...

Losty

I forgot to mention something. In an earlier post you indicated the following concering the island size.

TPTB have hinted that the Lost island may be of much bigger size then the audience would expect. Sorry, I have no source for that (it was posted some months ago at DarkUFO's). But this statement is still flying around in my mind on every discussion about the scale. Though, it could be a red herring...

The following is a quote from David Fury, "Lost" writer

JUST A NOTE ABOUT THE SIZE OF THE ISLAND BY DAVID FURY

This is not a show about the supernatural, despite the fact that we have a very huge creature that likes to eat people. Despite the surreal, bizarre aspects of the island, there will be an explanation for it. It may not come for a very long time, but certain information about the island will explain how things are possible. We'll try to root it in real science or real pseudo-science. There will be no mystical reason or an island of monsters. The island has been around for millennia, and many people have found themselves on it, and as far as we know, nobody has ever gotten off. There is also the possibility of others being on the island, they just haven't seen them yet. And we'll never know how big this island is. It could be enormous, but odd things will keep them from knowing the full length and breadth of it."
- David Fury, "Lost" writer

Hope that helps,

Mike

LostySmurf said...

Hi Mike,

thanks again for your great findings. I should call you 'Eagle Eye Mike'. ;)
I know this screenshot and I've really been investigating it for hours when I made my map but though I haven't found this circle before. Again, you did a fantastic job. I think it does mean something and I agree that it could be a hatch ... wait, maybe it's the radio tower? But it's a bit far off the expected position. Hmmm, maybe it's the Arrow. Hmmm, where is the arm (I'm just seeing Sayid's arm ;) )? Do you mean this small arrow-esque looking black thing (left of the 'Le' from the 'Le plateau ouest' caption)?

In the official podcast Damon Lindelof stated that they knew from the start that there were at least two smaller islands but I don't get how this should confirm or deny anything about the position of the Hydra island. For me it sounds like an interpretation of the person who wrote the summary of the podcast (and people posting it on other websites). Or did I miss something?
And I think they meant the Others didn't know anything about the Swan, as far as I remember. Otherwise the Purge would have taken place during the time the survivors were on the island and the Others wouldn't live in the DHARMA barracks when O815 crashed. Hmmm, I think maybe the Others thought the Swan was just an experiment (as stated in the Pearl video).

Dreamer (from http://i-love-sayids-lost-blog.blogspot.com) informed me about Lostcasts and that they mentioned my site. That's really great and it's an honor for me seeing other people promoting my site (because this also indicates that people like what I'm doing). And thank you very much for correcting the typo at DarkUFO's. I love his site and I try to read as much comments as possible but I don't accomplish to read all.

Yeah, I also remember that statement from TPTB about the size of the island and it's always in my mind too. Also thanks for posting the David Fury quote. Well, the term 'enormous' also hints that it's much bigger than expected but is also a very blurry description. And taking a look at our last estimates, I would say that this size is also bigger than the average viewer would expect. What do you think?

John Locke 007 said...

Hey Losty,

Thanks for the encoroging words. The arm I referred to is the straight line emminating from the center of the circle (I attached a screen shot to show this)

My take on the PodCast is that Hydra island is the island shown on the south tim of the top Map when Sayid lays them down above each other. One map shows the smaller island off it's southern coast, like you placed it. I'd have to revisit the maps for the size, but I seem to remember you got the size correct also.

As far as the David Fury qoute, I somehow think that the island is analogous to the tip of an iceberg. I think there may be parts to the island that we can't see, or just havn't seen. The part we have seen being a small part of the total. I don't know how this is possible, but if did, I would be writing for Lost. LOL.

Mike

Oh, Losty,

By the way, I selected a new blogger name. I decided to use one that is Lostcentric. So if you see John Locke 007 it's me.

LostySmurf said...

Ok Mike...err... I mean John. ;)

I thought David Fury said this during the first season because he has left Lost and also mentions "the possibilty of others being on the island".

Yeah, I see the arm and my first thought was that it looks like a Peace or Mercedes-Benz symbol (maybe it's the position of Jacob's car... LOL).

John Locke 007 said...

I don't know when he said it, it was on my hard drive. I'm sure you are right about his comment then.

The circle may be nothing, but it may be a hatch. I guess only time will tell. I also remember a circle with an arrow pointing out of it where the caves are, but I'm having troulbe locating that screen shot. If I find it I'll forward it.

Mike

LostySmurf said...

Hi Mike,

sorry, I can't remember this screenshot you mentioned. Was it a screenshot of a map or a did you see the circle drawn on a rock near the caves? I hope you find the screenshot because it would be a great clue to position the caves.

Just rethought the statement of David Fury and revisited the size calculation you did for Danielle's side view/elevation map (see the 5th comment on this page). Maybe I was wrong and your size calculation actually were accurate. Only the height of the mountains seems odd to me. 3000m would be very high (to draw a comparison: Mount Elbert of the Rockies is 4401m above sea level). But I think it isn't impossible. The smaller islands on Danielle's map could be rescaled to enhance their visibility. Or even the scale in the bottom right of the elevation map could be correct. Then the island would be really huge (more than 1/3 of the size of Iceland). This would mean we've only seen a very small part of the island (the tip of the iceberg). Well, I guess anything of this could be true and maybe it's really the best thing to 'wait, watch and see' (to quote Gregg Nations :) ).

John Locke 007 said...

Hey Losty,

The screen cap I was refering to is a map screen cap. I think it was a very high resolution screen cap from season 1 episode 12 "What ever the case may be". For some reason, it's no longer on LostMedia.com. I have my own screen shot, but it's not high defintion. (It's a shot of Kate looking down at the map). I seem to remember an unusual circle with an arrow at the location close to the caves (where we think the caves are). I've searched the web, but haven't found it. You might have it in you hard drive. For some reason, I must have erased it.

As far as the mountain scale is concerned, I never really considered the hieght of the mountains. We can see the mountains are not even close to 3000 meters, although Michael did say the island is "Huge". I agree we will simply have to wait and see.

Mike.

LostySmurf said...

Hey Mike,

I've checked all screencaps on my harddrive and only found the screenshot of Shannon looking down at the map - the one you've also posted before (this one). Unfortunately, I haven't found any version with a better resolution yet. But I'll keep searching...

John Locke 007 said...

That's the one I have. I meant to say Shannon was looking down at it, not Kate.

I'll continue to search other web sites. I can't believe I trashed that file. I let you know what I find.

Mike.

John Locke 007 said...

Hey losty,

I found a web site TheBlaockRock.org
that had an image of different high resolution map screen caps canabalized to form one map.
I included 5 cirlces on the image to show different items. The image screen cap has the following circles marked:

1 The original item that I thought was a circle with an arrow at the caves. Now that I look at it again, I think it's just the start of the river.

2. I don't have any idea what this could mean, but it seems to indicate some sort of writing. Maybe you could have better luck with it that me.

3. I think this may be where Rousseau may have hid. There is an "R", which may be for Rousseau.

4. Another circle with a dot.

5. The circle with a dot we already discussed.

LostySmurf said...

Hi Mike,

thanks a lot. I remember that I've seen the map some time ago but I didn't realized the quality of the used screenshots and therefore, I haven't investigated it in detail.

I would say that 2-4 are compression artifacts. You can small squares in this area of the image. Though, I also see the tiny 'R' in #3 and I agree that it could be Rousseau's hideout.

1. I can't see this mark in the screenshot of S03E02 but I really looks like a circle. Maybe it's also some artifact but I'm really unsure about it.

5. This is from one of the best map screenshots so I would say it's safe to say: There definitely is a circle and I would say that marks some man-made facility.

It would be really great to see some more screenshots of the map in the show and I pray that TPTB don't let us wait too long for that.

John Locke 007 said...

Now that I think of it, you must be right about 2-4. This screen shot is so distorted from the original map and then you add the lousy from the codec, anything on that particular screen shot is of no value (right side of map.) The "R" mark must be a mark that coincedently looks like an "R". If there was an "R" on the original map it would be so twisted on this version, you couldn't make it out. I think item one is simply the Map maker connecting the mountain finger to the river.
That leaves item 5. This could be legitimate, but like you said, we will have to wait and see. It would be nice to see a new hatch in that area, but that would be too much to ask for. LOL

As an aside, I noticed that two different people actually made this map for ABC. There are two distinct handwriting types, which doesn't surprise me as I'm sure they were under pressure to realease the props as soon as possible for the show.

I'm leaning toward the handwriting and arrow in the middle of the map as being the location of BlackRock, but I'm still not sure.

Looking forward to tonights show,

Mike.

BTW, when does Lost broadcast in your country? I'm GMT - 6 hours (I think) (New York time) and it airs tonight at 10:00 pm localy.

LostySmurf said...

The 'R' could be a noise and just appear as an 'R' coincidently but I also wouldn't be surprised, if there actually was an 'R' (though, it has to be written with a bigger line width than the other notes on the map).

Hmmm, do you know that two different people made this map or is it your conclusion because of the two distinct handwriting styles? Because for the latter, I would rather think that it's an indication that it wasn't Rousseau who made the map (except for some notes) but someone else. Because even if you have two guys from ABC working on a map, I would let one of them make ALL the notes to have a unique handwriting on it (this really doesn't take much time).

Let me put it this way: I hope that I'll be able to see the show tomorrow evening when I get home from work (that would be ~ 1-2 pm NY time). The official broadcast of season three will start here in end of 2007... :(

John Locke 007 said...

Hey losty,

I didn't mean to mislead you about Rousseau not making as far as the show is concerned. The handwriting is all the same. It just seems to me the the cartographer that ABC hired to actually make the map as a prop for the show may have had some help. It seems to me that the way the mountains are drawn (these are artistic differences in the prop, again no bearing at all on the show Lost) suggest two different people. See the attached screen shot
There really is no relavency to it, just thought I would mention it as an aside.

Wow, you have to wait that long before you can see the actual broadcast? Thank God for bittorrent.
Do you live close to Italy/Switzlerland border?

Mike

LostySmurf said...

Hi Mike,

now I see what you mean. Thanks for clarifying that. It's definitely a different drawing style and it looks like it was initially drawn very detailed (on the left side) and then with less detail on the right. Maybe they had to hurry to finish it in time. :)

I've been living close to the border Switzerland and France for some time but since some months I'm back in the North of my country. As you may have noticed, I'm always careful with publicly posting personal details. There're just too many bored lawyers in my home country trying to sue any webmaster because of formal errors...

Yesterdays episode wasn't bad but I would rate it as my least favorite episode this season. Maybe I'll change my mind when I watch it again.

LostySmurf said...

Hi Mike,

I made an update on my map. Maverick pointed me to a huge clue about the position of the Flame station.
Let me know what you think.

John Locke 007 said...

Hey Losty,

Wow, you have made a lot of changes to your map.

I really have not had the time to read and study the posts/comments which resulted in your changing of positions.

I think you put a lot of weight on the BDM. I'm not really sure how accurate that map is as far as actual distances in location of positions, but I'm sure its acurate as far as the order and relative positions of items.

That's why I don't understand the placement of The Flame on your map. On BDM the Staff and Arrow are adjacent to each other. I don't think you can insert a station between them.

C3 seems like a good canidate for the Flame. The Blast Door comment of this location is "why so many Dharmatel Relays in such an untenable location". Another comment is "Mountanous Terrean most likely used by D.I.H.G. (Dhama Initiative Hanso Group)for meteorlogical research). We know it's a mountanous area.

I wouldn't put too much weight on distances as far as the BDM is concerned, but I do think the order and relative positions is accurate.

Also, whatever station you decide is the Flame's station, I would then desigate the "alleged Location" station with the the station that the Flame then occupies. In other words, as your map now shows, the ??? should be C3. There are only 7 stations and they have all been identified, so I wouldn't imply an unknown station, unless thats what you are trying to do.

I wish I had more time to study your latest version, but trying to detail my map is very time consuming, although I think I'm close to beiing done. I'll email you what I have so far. Let me know what you think. :)

Mike

LostySmurf said...

Hi Mike,

thanks for your comment and your map. I know it's very time consuming to make a map so I really appreciate that you took the time to give me some feedback.

I spent quite a time to figure out how I could incorporate the cable map in my map and I had no idea until Maverick pointed me to some notes on the BDM and the major clue to reposition the Flame was given by the BDM. There are some notes at the Flame station indicating that it could be somewhere else ('alleged location of #4 - The Flame'->'but unlikely due to Cerberus activity'). So this could be the 'alleged location of aborted #7' instead of the Flame. I'll designate this station with an 'aborted #7' caption on my map. So this would be an unknown station in terms of 'we haven't seen it on the show', but known by Radzinsky (like C3 or C4) when he draw the map.

Knowing that the Flame should be close to Othersville (see cable map), I placed it at the position of the crossed out station (labelled with 'UNKNOWN!') on the BDM. At this position we see the notes about the 'security barrier', the 'Hub for E.E.P. (Emergency Escape Protocol) conduits' (maybe the underground passages seen on the cable map) and the 'possible offshore data dump' (could be the beacon mentioned by Patchy). Taking into account, that Kate, Danielle, Sayid and John found the Flame following a bearing of 305 (though, we don't know were they started), the Flame should be somewhere on the left side of the BDM.

I know some locations on my map still look a little bit out of place but it's a work in progress. :)

Your map looks fantastic! Especially the northern part is a perfect copy and I think even TPTB wouldn't find any difference to their original map (except for the missing notes from Danielle). It's very hard to find anything to criticize. Because of that and that it's the most accurate and detailed map I've taken a close-up look at the only area that looks different to me: the crater. I made an overlay with the 'Shannon-screenshot' of this area to compare it. You'll find it here. I've marked the spots that are different. I think the most important difference is that the ridge should stretch further to the South (see the big circle).

Some other detail I noticed was this one. Maybe these are just compression artifacts but it somehow looks odd (this is why I use the PNG-format).

Hope this helps you to improve your already fantastic map.

John Locke 007 said...

Hey Losty,

Thanks for your insight and comments concerning my map. I'll make sure I incorportate them into the finished product.

Please disregard my earlier post about inserting a station between the Arrow and Staff. The blast door map I was using had the top cut off without the words "UNKNOWN". I didn't realize there could be another station there. Sorry.

As far as the Cabling map is concerned, there is a scale at the bottom. I can't read the actual markings, just the legnth. I would suspec that the legth is 1 mile, in 1/4 mile increments. The reason I think this is I don't think Othersville is more that 1 mile in diameter.

It it is puzzle. :)

Mike

LostySmurf said...

Hey Mike,

yeah, it's really a puzzle (and this is why I love it). :)

Thanks for your ideas. Lostpedia has a HD screenshot of the cable map (click on the image for the full size picture). There is a word before the 'miles' caption but I can't read it. This could be a prefix like 'quarter' (to get the 1/4 mile increments). And I agree that Othersville shouldn't be much bigger than 1 mile in diameter.

I'm looking forward to see your finished map. It will be perfect.

John Locke 007 said...

Hey Losty,

I'm still about a week away from finishing my map, but it's comming along pretty well. I noticed that TPTB seemed to purposely cloak the right side of the map for some reason.

SPOILER ALERT!!

Anyway, Last night's program should give us a lot of Amunition to nail down Otherville. The Submerine dock scene shows the "Otherville Mountain from the oposite side. The mountain profiles agree, so with that, other views should really help.

SPOILER ALERT FINISHED!!


As I'm coming close to finishing my map, I've been thinking about the location of different items. I have the luxury that you were not afforded in that I have much more information to determine site locations.

I have recently reviewed the plane break up and I believe that TPTB purposely misled us. I posted a mystery at DARKUFO's site a few months back after I realized that the beach crash site has 3 engines. The plane only has two. What's even more disturbing is that an engine is clearly broken loose when the plane breaks up. The smoke trail we see is off that engine. We never see the fusalge/cockpit trail.


I included the following screen shots.

view1

view2

view3

view4

view5

view6

view7

view8

view9

view10

view11

I also did a little investigating and located the actual Otherville. Its actually a YMCA camp in on the Mokule'la beach in Oahu, camp Erdman. I then was able to use Google to get a very detailed Satalite view with scale. If your interested, I will send the photo's to you. What it provides, is an abiltility to rectify the Flame map scale.

Hope this post wasn't too long.

Mike

:)

John Locke 007 said...

hey Losty,
For some reason, my links don't seem to be working. Sorry about that.

The URL's are below.

http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/4502/flight815view01gr4.png
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/9971/flight815view02bo1.png
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/816/flight815view03ig7.png
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/7282/flight815view04ll8.png
http://img145.imageshack.us/my.php?image=flight815view06pc7.png
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/8894/flight815view06pc7.png
http://img460.imageshack.us/img460/4204/flight815view08sd3.png
http://img460.imageshack.us/img460/9231/flight815view09ne0.png
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/4206/flight815view10ez0.png
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/587/flight815view11og0.png
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/630/flight815view12or9.png

LostySmurf said...

Hi Mike,

thanks for your post and the screenshots. BTW, your links were just missing the 'r' in 'href' so I was able to extract the URLs from the source code of your post. So here's the 'clickable' version :)

view1 view2 view3 view4 view5 view6 view7 view8 view9 view10 view11

Take your time to finish your map. We're not getting any money for this so it should be all about having a good time (and don't become any stress). I'm very curious about the information you mentioned, but I will try to be patient...

Also thanks for the Spoiler marks. I've already seen the episode and it was totally awesome. I think there was also a good hint of the position of the Flame (being in front of a huge cliff). And it seems to me that the dock for the sub was inside a (big) river. But I've to rewatch it and will post some screenshots of it later (I finally found a method to get screenshots that aren't that bad than my first ones).

I remember that you had posted a comment at DarkUFO's about the engines (somewhere in one of the "We were missing something in the pilot"-posts). You also wrote something about the distinct plane type and that it usually only has two engines. Well, to be honest, I don't think this was meant by TPTB when they said that we missed something in the Pilot because the common viewer isn't aware of the number of engines different plane types have (and they were addressing the 'normal' viewer because it was the pilot and they had no idea about their future success). Nevertheless, it actually is very odd to have three instead of two engines and now I think it could have a meaning. But my main problem with it is: What would TPTB want to hint with an extra engine (maybe another plane?!?)? I've really no idea what it could be... Any theories?

You're absolutely right about the smoke trail. There's only a smoke trail from the engines. So I guess the fuselage could be over the visibal perspective of the last shot. Hmmm, but the engines were with the fuselage at the beach.

I would love to see the screenshot of the YMCA camp (hope we don't hear any Village People songs from Othersville...LOL).

The size of the post isn't too long (rather too short ;) ). You're always getting exactly to the point and that's perfect.

John Locke 007 said...

That's what I don't understand. Oceanic 815 had two engines. One came loose when the plane disconnected. That engine is the smoke trail we see in the " Otherville" photo. It's also very obvious in the "new" screen shots thats it an engine.Why would TPTB use computer anitmation to (implies that they must have know) separate an engine from the fusalae, with different trajectory. The trajectory of both items falling at the beach crash has to be 1 in 1.000.000.

I'm stumped, you?

What I'm trying to say is that the fuslage's trail isn't as what we thought it was.

You may have to reconsider your selection of "otherville", just like the detectivle story I told you.

Mike
:)

Maverick said...

Hey guys. This weeks episode was great but unfortunatly no big maps hanging on Ben's wall :(

It does seem that the Sub was completely surrounded when Juliet exited so I guess it's confirmed the Sub uses underground passages. The Flame also seems to be just outside of the Barracks mountain range. Juliet and Ben take a short walk with no water or backback. The Others also seem to be directly supported by the Hanso Group, which also (used to) fund Dharma. The Island has a Barrier to the outside would, so bad Juliet needed to be tranquilized. Is this what broke up 815? and possibly boats, balloons etc.

Im still not sure on the Pala Ferry location. Sayid leaves on Day 66, finds the statue and fake camp on day 67, also on day 67 mike leaves with the boat, on day 68 sayid leaves the signal fire (which I assume is close to fake camp) and on day 69 discovers the Pala Ferry dock, the Others take the boat that night. Did he sail to the other side of the island that fast after taking a day to get to fake camp? and would he really travel that far when all he wanted was to get away from the mountain blocking the signal fire?

I doubt the Pearl Staff walked to the dock, so I assume they used the underground tunnels. But why not go all the way to the barracks? Perhaps the tunnels are actually meant for boats and/or the submarine? And if the Pala ferry is close to the Arrow then why didnt the tail section people find it. What route do you think they used to get back to fuse camp?

Also I don't think the engine thing means anything. The pilot episode was filmed like 3 years ago, and they just wanted the s3 opener to look cool with stuff flying off.

Long post, sorry :)

Maverick.

LostySmurf said...

Hi Mike,

thanks for your ideas. Well, I'm no expert regarding the crash scenario but I'm trying my best to put the facts and my theories together (please correct me if I'm wrong or have missed anything important).

- Fact 1: We've seen following parts of the plane in the Pilot: 1) Fuselage with one wing, 2) engine on fire, 3) still working engine and a lot of debris.

- Fact 2: Othersville panorama: Some smoke trails leading to two different smoking locations (~4-5 to the one on the left, ~3 to the one on the right)

- Fact 3: Plane breaking apart with following fragments: intact right wing, a part of left wing broke off, engine on fire, the fuselage (still together with the cockpit) and the tailsection.

These facts lead me to following theories (or lets say: assumptions for the course of events):

- The first screenshot we saw in 'Fact 1' showed the fuselage upside down with it's right wing to the right (So we're looking into the fuselage from the cockpit). Left to the fuselage lies the still working engine of the left wing (still connected to the leftover of the left wing and therefore getting fuel).

- It's very unlikely (but we've seen unlikely things happen before on Lost), but the engine on fire went the same way down as the fuselage. Maybe not the same way (as you've stated before, Sayid mentioned that the fuselage cartwheeled through the jungle) but the result was that both parts ended their way down at the beach crash site of the fuselage.

- The smoking areas shown in 'Fact 2' are the crashsites of fuselage (left) and tail section (right). Take for example the tail section: There was nothing producing any smoke in that area, though we see it in this screenshot. So my guess would be that TPTB used the smoke to show us the distance to the fuselage and the tail section crash sites.

This is how I interpret the things we've seen about the crash. I may be wrong, have missed something or simply didn't get your point... (I've to admit that I'm very bad in reading between the lines :) )

Ahh, detective story. I remember what it means and you're right - I should stay open minded. But to be honest, I've no idea what all this would mean for the position of Othersville. I see it this way:
The Others were shielding their eyes with their hands and respecting the shadow of Juliet's hand the sun was shining from 2:00 (assuming Juliet was looking 12:00). The sun should shine from ~ 243,75 degree at 4:15pm (see Sundial). The angle of the sun would give us a difference of ~60 degree (=2:00 * 360/12:00), so this would mean they were looking South (~180°). What does all this mean for the position of Othersville?

LostySmurf said...

Hi Maverick,

'Left behind' was one of my favorite episodes this season (together with 'Tale of two cities','Flashes Before Your Eyes', 'Man from Tallahassee' and (please don't kill me) 'Exposé'). But I guess this list will be getting longer the next weeks.

Thanks for your post. You made some very important points about the position of the Pala Ferry. I've to admit that I don't have the exact timeline in mind but your best point is that Sayid just wanted to get around the mountain. I guess I've to revisit these episodes to refresh my memory.

I got the impression that the Flame seems to be on the other side of the mountain seen 9:00 from the Pala Ferry.

I'm glad you're asking about the route of the Taillies because I had it in my map some time ago but I never published it. Finally, it wasn't all worthless and I found a reason to post it here. But seeing it now again, I remember why I haven't published it... :)

John Locke 007 said...

Hey Losty,

If the engine and fusalage end up in the same place, than your placement of Otherville is not influenced as the trail lead to the same place.

I live in the Northern Hemishere and forgot that this island is in the Southern Hemisphere(I suppose), so disgard my statements concering the Sun and shading of eyes.

Mike
:)

John Locke 007 said...

Hey lOsty,
This is the view of the actual "Otherville" from Google Map/Satalite.

View showing mountains

View showing close up

LostySmurf said...

Hi Mike,

thanks for the Google Maps screenshot. The Misfit would say: I've run my 'Othersville recognition software beta' on it to determine to 98.746% that it IS Othersville. :)
Seriously, someone posted an Image of an Othersville 3d model at Yung's thread and I think it matches perfectly. Comparing it to the scale of the cable map, I wouldn't be surprised if the caption wasn't 'quarter miles' but maybe something like 'deci miles' (or 1/10 miles). I'm only familar with the metric system so I don't know if there's a unit like that.

I'm glad you see what I mean in my previous post. I tend to overlook important details sometimes but the things I notice I usually analyze ad nauseam. :)
Hmmm, I always thought the sun should always go East->South->West and only the seasons are flipped in the northern and southern hemisphere.

While searching for the pic in Yung's thread I also found this neat map of the Lost island. I like it!

LostySmurf said...

Maverick! Just recognized a VERY bad error... Of course, I meant 'One of us' instead of 'Left behind' was one of my favorite episodes...

John Locke 007 said...

Hey losty,

I really like both of those screen
shots, especially the second one. That's pretty funny. Be great on a shirt. The MisFit is King!! BEsT LosTIGator IN the kNoWn UniVESes!!!

I hope I didn't offend you with my Detective referce. Turns out, I was able to finally convince myself that your Otherville is accurate, but for differenct reasons! LOL
I'll get that, but first.


What I meant about the Sun, is that a Sundial in the Northern Hemisphere has to be reversed (turned upside down) to work in the Southern Hemisphere. When I used the figure of 330 degrees, I was adding 2 hours x 30 degree/hour= 60degree to 270 (due west). This is ok for the Nortern Hemsipher. In the Southern Hemispher, I should have subtracted 60 degrees from 270 to realize 210 degrees.(The further from the equator, the less acurate) A sundial has an angle with the ground equal to the Latitude it's used for.

What I was implying (I should have expained myself, sorry.), is simply that Otherville should be Northest of the Flight path since the Others were looking Southwest.

Thanks for the Flame map screenshot.
That's really cool.
What I noticed in this screen shot is what I think is the distance between barriers. If you look toward the right hand section, I think it says 20 feet. This may be the distance between the barriers.

You make the point that you use Metric and are not familiar with English units. It's really amazing. We are tought Metric in University, but when we enter Industry, it's all English. I wish we used metric.


In general(I'm a Mechanical Engineer who still draws blueprints) in the english sysem, various lenths are divided by units of two. For example, typical units of inches are 1/2 inch, 1/4 inch, 1/8 inch, 1/16 inch.

Miles would be 1/2 mile, 1/4 mile, 1/8 mile, 1/16 mile.

It would be very typical for the scale to be 1/4 mile.


You won't believe it, but you made a comment, that after I thought about it, it completely changed my view on Othersville. I think its exactly where you have it! But I think that the tailies are on the opposite side of the island.

You said that the tail section shouldn't have a smoke trail. I couldn't figure that out. Then I did! Your right. Guess what I realized. The view is reversed!!What I really believe TPTB did to make it harder to figure out, is when we were viewing the plane disinigrate, we all assumed that the view was from Otherville. I think it's reversed. We were seeing the plane from the opposite side, and assumed it was the same view.


View panoramic with true relative position of Otherville and objects flight trajectroy


I think the Tailies landed somewhere close to where you show "Black Smoke"

I think the Fusalage went out over the Ocean, (out of view),turned left toward the beach site and cartwheeled very little and landed at the beach.

As far as the engines are concerned, I did some investigating, and I think I know why there are 3 engines at the crash site. TPTB bought a plane with 4 engines to use. If you spent all that money, why not use it. I simply think they bought it, and were going to use it.

Well, After you read this book, let me know what you think.

Mike
:)

LostySmurf said...

Hi Mike!

Hell no, I'm not that easily to offend. It's more the contrary. I'm very calm person and there's no problem to doubt any of my theories or perspectives in a constructive way, because for me it's always an important help to improve them. There are so many people in business life agreeing to everything their boss says and I had some bosses who really appreciated it to tell them the truth (it's similar to the 'Continuos-Improvement-Process' in quality management). So if it sounded rude or as if I were offended I apologize. I'm always very happy to read your posts and ideas.

Oh boy, I was totally wrong. Just found this article:
In the southern hemisphere the sun passes from east to west through the north, although north of the tropic of Capricorn the mean Sun can be directly overhead or due south at midday. The sun rotating to the north causes sun-cast shadows to turn anticlockwise through the day (sun dials have the hours in reverse) (Source: see Wikipedia, 5th paragraph)
This means, you were right with adding 60 degree because the sun would shine from 90° in the morning, 360/0° midday and 270° in the evening. So in the afternoon it should be somewhere between 360° and 270° in the southern hemisphere (= Juliet was looking west). In the northern hemisphere the sun goes from 90° over 180° to 270° and this was the base of my calculation ((180° + 4.25h * 15°) - (2:00 * 360/12:00)). This means, I've also have to rethink my position of the Hydra island...
But certainly, one point should be kept in mind: Locke said something like "Winters coming" to Paulo in Exposé. This could be either a) a hint that the island is in the northern hemisphere, b) TPTB have made the mistake (sun position and seasons changed) all the time or c) the writer for this scene forgot that they are in the southern hemisphere and the seasons are flipped.

SPOILER/RUMOR based statement
Well, but I have the feeling at the end of the season we know something more about the position of the island.
SPOILER End

We have some imperial units here too (e.g. with TVs/Monitors or tyres) but almost everything else is declared in SI units. But conversion isn't a problem for me (thanks to this site :)) and I know what a 'Quarter Pounder with Cheese' is (but we call it 'Royale with Cheese' here). Sorry, I couldn't resist this Pulp Fiction reference. :)

I think you're right that the distance between the barriers is 20ft but I wouldn't take the number of dots on the map as its actual one (then Othersville would be something like 0.07 miles in diameter). I'm a software engineer and therefore, I like this binary division for the typical units. :) I think 'quarter mile' is a good choice until we have further information.

I need some time to analyze your theory but I'll post some comments on it later today.

Thanks for the book. :)
The reading doesn't take so much time for me but the anwering and investigating (like reading wikipedia articles) does. But I'm really enjoying it (otherwise I wouldn't have this website) and to anwer it before you ask: Yes, I have also a real life :D

John Locke 007 said...

Hey losty,

I'm not sure, but I might have located Pala Ferry.

Pala Ferry??

Confirmaition view

Let me know what you think. If you look at the word beneath the pier, it seems to start with Pal, then the page folds/creases.

Also, I think I may have found another small islet. I originally thought that it was simply part of notes, but looking from different vantage points, I'm convinced it's a small inlet. When Michael left, there was a small islet in the backgroung. This may be it.

Dont worry, I won't post more today.LOL


Mike
:)

LostySmurf said...

Your posts are always very welcome at any time!

Hmmm, I think it could be the river leading into the ocean. But there's a line left to it (see your first screenshot) which could be the Pala Ferry (and I think it's the one you've marked in the second one). The islet looks to me like one of Rousseau's numbers that are everywhere on the map.

I'll search for a better screenshot (or make one) to investigate this.

John Locke 007 said...

Hey Losty,

could you explain why you might have to revisit your Hydra location. I don't understand. Thanks.

Mike

LostySmurf said...

Hi Mike,

I was never very sure about it being this southern island but the position of the sun (see the 2nd and 3rd screenshots here) supported this idea. Assuming Ben and Sawyer were facing 12:00, the sunshine was coming ~ 4-5. It was early in the morning (some time after sunrise) so the sun should be somewhere in this area in the northern hemisphere (~ 100-120 degree). But knowing now that the sun is going counter-clockwise in the southern hemisphere, the sun should shine from (~ 60-80 degree). This means they could be facing West instead of North.

This doesn't actually mean that I will put it to another position but I guess it's worth to think about it again...

Maverick said...

We know that Hydra Island is one of the 3 islands on Rousseau's maps.

Eastern Island - Not possible because sawyer and ben would have seen more of the island.
Alex Island - Not possible because hydra is 2 miles away from main island. If alex is Hydra then the main Island would be what 10? 20? times bigger then we thought? Doesn't fit with known travel times.
Southern Island - Only one that fits all requirements.

Maverick.

LostySmurf said...

Ok Mike, now I've sorted my thoughts about your plane crash theory. I've completely freed my mind from any previously made assumptions so many things will contradict my former theories on this scene.

Let me see if I got it right: Juliet, Ben and the other Others are looking West to see the plane disintegrate. Then, when we see the panned view it is showing us the opposite direction and we are looking East. The fuselage is above the screen, the engine on fire producing smoke in the center of this view and the Tail section is at the left. Is this what you mean?

Here's my summary of spontaneous comments on that:
1) The crash site on the left (Tail) is really far away and IMO, it's impossible to get there in an hour (even in a tunnel system). I think it's also a tough job to get to the other crash site (engine) in that time.
2) There are some mountain ridges visible at the horizon on the left (in the panned shot). This indicates that there's more land in this area. So the direction of this shot would be North-East but regarding the terrain and coastlines from Rousseau's map.

And some direct comments to your post (Quotes in italic):
I think the Tailies landed somewhere close to where you show "Black Smoke"
Then we would be looking North, right? Could be possible.

I think the Fusalage went out over the Ocean, (out of view),turned left toward the beach site and cartwheeled very little and landed at the beach.
You mean something like towards the camera of the panned out shot (~ 7:00)? Hmmm, would be strange but I think it could be possible.

As far as the engines are concerned, I did some investigating, and I think I know why there are 3 engines at the crash site. TPTB bought a plane with 4 engines to use. If you spent all that money, why not use it. I simply think they bought it, and were going to use it.
Yes, I agree. I think that could be a explanation for that.

IMO, only the engine on fire and the engine attached to the fuselage should have left any smoke trail and so I would rather say (if there was any misleading from TPTB) that the tail section isn't visible in this view and we see the fuselage on the left and one engine in the center.

But (I'm getting now biased again :) ) I can't see what's the big problem for the common theory (left fuselage, center tail). Is it just because of the contrails and the smoke? Or do you have some further information that there's something fishy in this scene?

Pala Ferry: I haven't found any better screenshot and the ones I made are even worse (horrible artifacts) :(
But I keep on searching.

LostySmurf said...

Hi Maverick,

the main problem is that none of the shown islands matches the given criteria. The ratio between the distance to the main island (2 miles) and the size of the Hydra island (2x Alcatraz) is constant so it's independent from the used scale on Rousseau's map. This is also the reason why I resized the current Hydra island to its current tiny size. I made some calculations for that some time ago:

Alcatraz is 0.0763 km² --> Hydra island: ~ 0.1526 km². This would be a square of 400m x 400m or a rectangle of 800m x 200m. Assuming the island would occupy approximately 70% of this rectangle, the island could be something like 800m x 300m (= 0.5 miles x 0.19 miles). Assuming it's "roughly" twice the size of Alcatraz there could be a variation of some percent.

Now, when you increase the visual size of the Hydra island on Danielle's map (no matter which island it is) to a size of any of the islets we are seeing on the map, the scale of the map would increase (and therefore the distance between Hydra and main island) so that the island would be out of the scope of the map.

From its postion the eastern island would make the most sense (IMO). But you're right that we would see more of the main island in this case.

So right now, I'm really thinking that it's an island we haven't yet spotted on Danielles map (it's really tiny) or that it isn't shown own Rousseau's map.

Maverick said...

Hey guys. I was watching "3 minutes" and "live together" and I had some ideas. Here is an image with my thoughts.

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/4280/lostislandmapideasqb0.png

(lostislandmapideasqb0.png)
(still cant make link clicky lol)

Maverick.

LostySmurf said...

Hi guys,

Maverick, thanks for your idea. I made the clickable link here. I think Blogger made it intentionally inconvenient to post links to reduce the amount of spam posts. But if you're interested, here's the way it can be done (it's equal to HTML):

<a href="URL">Link text</a>

But now to your ideas. Some time ago I had also the idea that the fake camp could be the cross mark in the North-West because of the statement made by Michael. Then I dismissed it because Walt told Michael (on the computer) that if he goes North he won't miss this location.

Now we know (since Exposé) it's very likely that it wasn't Walt chatting with Michael on the computer and that the Others didn't wanted him to find the fake camp but to capture him before (see also my side note theory below). So I think it isn't a bad choice to place it at the cross mark any more. The subterranean passages in the cable map also hints that there has to be a facility in this area and also see the rumours at (possible SPOILER) DarkUFO's rumour site.

I also thought about the small bay being the location of the Othersville submarine dock. But I think it's too far away of Othersville respectively too close to the Pala Ferry position. According to the current scale of the map the rivers are pretty big so I think the dock could be closer to Othersville. You mentioned before in another post that there should be a river somewhere on the cable map but I haven't found it yet (this shouldn't imply that it isn't there but that I'm too blind to see it on the screenshots provided by Lostpedia). Could you please give me a little hint.

I've been thinking about the position of the Pala Ferry for a long time and you've convinced me that it's wrong in it's current postion on my map. Please give me some time to rewatch the episodes of Sayid's boat trip. I've a bad memory that sometimes needs a little refresh on some details. :)


Mike and Maverick, I'm working again on the stations of the BDM. I've horizontally compressed the image to make some things fit into the central valley but it looks a little bit odd...

Here's the current preliminary map.

Some off-topic side note theory here (it just came into my mind and haven't read it anywhere else before): I always wondered why Radzinsky edited the 'communication-part' out of the Swan orientation film. Now I think it could be that Dharma knew about the Others when they made the film and it even could be associated with the incident (which I don't think was the Purge). Maybe the Others infiltrated the Swan crew (using computer communication) and sabotaged the Dharma experiments on the magnetic properties of the island leading to the incident.

Years after that (and after the Purge) Radzinsky came to the island and some time later Kelvin arrived. The time passed and after Radzinsky's official time of duty on the island, no one from Dharma came to replace him. Soon he noticed that he and Kelvin were stuck on the island. After a while he started to explore the island (and to draw the BDM), while Kelvin's job was to push the button. On one of his trips he got in contact with the Others and they conned him to believe that they are the good guys and they "befriended". The Others did that because they only had limited knowledge about the Swan (statement by TPTB) and weren't able to seize it during the Purge (maybe because of Smokey). They could have promised Radzinsky to get him off the island and he saw it as his final chance to leave (because Dharma didn't seem to care about him any more). For the Others this was the best option to get the Swan under control without having a fight. Though, I still have to figure out what it could be the Others wanted Radzinsky to do in return... (maybe they wanted him to draw the map ?!?)

During his time as a mole in the Swan, Radzinsky edited the 'communication-part' from the Swan orientation footage, hid it in the Arrow and continued to draw the BDM. But similar to Juliet he started to demand that the Others get him off the island but also realized that they never let him go. So he commited suicide because this was the final solution for him to leave the island (or for the happy ending: he faked his suicide and the Others brought him home).
End of side note theory

Also sorry for the big post... :)

LostySmurf said...

Hi guys,

I've just revisited S02E23, S02E24 and S03E01 for the boat scenes to investigate the given clues.

I think we really don't know the exact timeline of the events but here's some information (Lostpedia has a timeline for all events but I can't see how it is determined):
Beach->Foot statue: no information
Foot statue->Fake camp: no information
Fake camp: Sayid's is praying facing the island. Muslims are praying at dawn, midday, afternoon, evening and nightfall and are facing Mecca (see details on wikipedia). The survivors assume to be somewhere near Fiji so I used this site to get the position Sayid would use, which is ~ 285 degree. So the boat would be sailing South (another WTF-moment for me). But it's close to the border where the direction flips so I really hope he is praying facing East.
Fake camp->Signal fire: no information
Signal fire: They're staying there for "over a day" and starting to sail North to get past the mountains blocking the view.
Signal fire->Pala Ferry: They arrive at the Pala Ferry in the morning (Sun mentions her morning sickness)
Pala Ferry: Excellent visibility for a signal fire (according to Sayid) and it's somehow far out (Sun: Who would build a dock all the way out here).

Unfortunately, not further insights from that (except for the weird "Qibla direction anomaly"). But having all this impressions fresh in mind, I think you're right and the Pala Ferry dock should be somewhere in the northern part of the island. And I just figured out that I made a terrible mistake: It's certainly the ferry which is called "Pala Ferry" and not the dock (*slapping hand at the forehead*). This means there has to be a second Pala Ferry dock that will carry the Pearl scientists from the Pearl to the barracks.

John Locke 007 said...

Hey Losty,

How are you. I'm excited about tonights show. I'm sure you are too, but have to wait until tomorrow.

Anyway, I was thinking about Pala Ferry. You made a great point, and I also completely didn't think about two piers, one Ferry. Slapped my forehead too! Great pick-up.

I've lived in area's close to the Pacific and Atlantic Ocean, and in gereral there are two types of piers.
One type of pier is an Ocean pier and is genearaly a pier for fishing off of and also used for people on vacation/holday to enjoy the ocean view with small shops/ arcades/ amusement rides.

The other pier is used for docking boats. These are piers that are generally in a bay (the deeper within the bay the better), to protect the boats from the open ocean.

I think that we should be thinking that Pala Piers are also located in area's that protect it from the open ocean.

What do you think

Mike

Maverick said...

I agree, tonights episode should be great. It's on at 8 pm EST here in HDTV.
The cable seems to be in the preview so maybe we will learn more about it and maybe rousseau, dark territory, the monster etc.

I also had a thought that furthers the idea that the Decoy camp is at north-west X. Sayid says while the rescue party goes by land, he can sail much quicker by sea. He sails non-stop until he find the fake camp and he immediately starts the signal fire. The rescue party sees it while at the capsule dump.
It seems logical that the boat would be MUCH further along north then the rescue party who would be walking/resting in the day or two it took to get there.

To Mike, its possible the island barrier protects it from dangerous ocean weather or it could be a result of weather modification. I think the terrain at the center north X matches the Pala Ferry location the most.

Enjoy tonight's episode only 2 hours to go :)

Maverick.

LostySmurf said...

Hi guys,

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to see the episode (Desmond is one of my favorite characters) and the promos looked very promising. And I just listened to the latest ABC podcast which was really entertaining with a lot of sarcasm and hints.

I think there has to be a meaning for the route (Pearl->Pala Ferry->Othersville) of the Pearl scientists going all the way around to get to Othersville. Maybe they were forced to take the Pala Ferry because of the security barrier but this would imply that the submarine dock is inside it. Anyway, I think it's a valid option to think about another dock close to the Pearl or Arrow that connects it to the Pala Ferry or submarine dock.

Maverick, good idea. But I think the boat didn't started the same time as the rescue party. But though, I think it's safe to assume that the Fake camp is the mark in the North-West.

Maverick said...

Yeah the Pearl to Barracks route bothers me too. Assuming an 8 hour shift everyday at the Pearl, 8 hours of rest at the Barracks (including at least 6 hours of sleep), that only leaves 8 hours for the trip from the Pearl to the Barracks and back (4 hours 1 way). Assuming the Pala Ferry is the Others Yacht how far could it travel in 4 hours? It doesn't seem to have a sail, so it must run on an engine.

And why not just use the tunnels to go all the way to the barrack? I assume there are (or was) vehicles or some sort of mine shaft type trains down there or else even walking to the arrow would take many hours.

I also enjoyed the Podcast :)
We learned the sub is called Galaga, smoke monsters can't jump, and the sonic barrier wasn't build to repel the monster (even though it does).

Maverick.

John Locke 007 said...

Hey guys,

What I'm thinking is that one of the piers is at the very north of the island inbetween the rivers. This would explain Sun's comment "Why would anyone put a pier all the way out here?"

The podcast is very informative, but very funny too. The question about Lockes brother had me on the floor!

To Maverick,

Hey how are you. I live in Philadelphia, and I don't get to see the show until 10:00 pm. How do you get to see it earlier? I only see it thru ABC, before I actually download it the next day. It changed for us from 9:00 pm to 10:00 pm this season. Do you actually get to see it at 9:00 pm EST?

Mike

:)


The podcast confirms that there was no Pilot mystery not uncovered.

Maverick said...

Hey mike, I live in Ontario, Canada. So I get to watch it on CTV at 8pm Est (45 mins from now:).
It's also on at 9pm and 10pm on ABC. I also download it so I can capture screenshots, it only takes me 5 mins to download and decompress a 350 MB episode. (1.5MB/second connection)

Maverick.

LostySmurf said...

Hi guys!

Yeah, no mystery left from the pilot to uncover. Reminds me somehow of the movie 'Wag the dog' ("There is no B3 bomber"). :)

BTW, I've spotted these two mountains missing on Rousseau's map:
undiscovered mountains

;)

John Locke 007 said...

I would love to climb those mountains. :)

John Locke 007 said...

Hey guys,

Just a head's up. The ABC poc cast is up (April 21). It's pretty good. I was surprised they got it up as quick as they did.

Mike

LostySmurf said...

Hey Mike,

thanks for the infomation! I wouldn't have expected it being released that early...